Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,051
# 521
01-10-2013, 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Mainly though I was just curiuos if the time-sink issue was the primary issue of why Cruiser players are upset.
As Bareel said, "Yes"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 108
# 522
01-10-2013, 02:50 PM
Time sink aside, Currently there is little if any content outside of pvp that require the resources a cruiser can provide. They can tank, but so too can an escort with the current enemies which are in game. They can heal, so too can escorts, not to the same level, but at a level necessary to compete in end game content.

Being self sufficient is ok in my book, but not at the cost of rendering a class of star ship moot.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,343
# 523
01-10-2013, 03:23 PM
I guess another question that might arise is:

If two captains (equally adept/inept) one commanding a cruiser and the other an escort, all things considered equal, which one would win the fight the vast majority of the times. If 60+% of the time one certain ship is dominant over the other (all things considered equal mind you) then there is something wrong.

I wish that the devs' would get involved in the debate, I would love to hear their take on it.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 452
# 524
01-10-2013, 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
I guess another question that might arise is:

If two captains (equally adept/inept) one commanding a cruiser and the other an escort, all things considered equal, which one would win the fight the vast majority of the times. If 60+% of the time one certain ship is dominant over the other (all things considered equal mind you) then there is something wrong.

I wish that the devs' would get involved in the debate, I would love to hear their take on it.


Depends on the variables. What captain classes ar invovled? Do both sides specifically equip boff powers for the task?

For example, being hit with an full aux snb and not having countermeasures vs the cooldown increase would be bad.
Or a Engineer captains ability to add another shield heal + instant heal.




If we discard those cocnerns and base this on pure ship vs ship stats we have the following:


The escort fields superior firepower in any case, the argument that DHC have a small arc of attack is poitnless sicne all escorts turn exceedingly fast and certainly fast enoguh to hold a crusier in their sights.
+ they can sit in the cruisers 6 o clock position all day, because all the moves a cruiser captain pulls to turn its backside away are also available to the escort in order to STAY there.

Next we have the escorts ability to terminate the encounter any tiem it wants by simply flying away really fast.... yes. flying away really fast. And if it does so in the opposite direction of the cruiser, the escort will be far out of reach by the time the cruiser has turned. Fundamentally, this is what makes escorts such awesoem tanks: they can just fck off for a second to catch their breath which negates the whole limited defense boffs thing people prattle on about all day like it was an disadvantage.

The retreat srves to not only avoid a buffed cruiser (if it is a tac captain for example.) and as such preserve the defense buffs for later use (when it starts its attack for example.)
Its also an eat way out of the snb cooldown: just run away for a bit.


If you get down to it: the only times escorts die to cruisers is in team environments when they get crippled by team effort and the crusier gets the last shot in or when the escort captain turns out to be a dud.

Oh and btw: the escort gets to BO3 you over and over and at some point will crit you for wtf damage.
one might notice that BO3 is a beam buff power and as such one would expect the premiere beam users to use it but alas it seems the dedicated dual cannon ships get to use the dedicated beam power too.... hm....


Anyways, their BO3 is going to wreck the cruiser at some point while the cruiser... gets to fizzle around i guess.... The weapons the cruiser will get on target (which is usuaylly only half its complement anyway since the escort sits in the back of the cruiser) are not powerfull enough to break even entry level of shield hardening, not to mention actually burn the bull down fast enough.



You have no excuse to lose to a cruiser in a 1v1 in an escort.

Escpecialy not in the bug ship, escort carrier and patrols.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 525
01-10-2013, 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyymbeere View Post
No need for a "Compilation".

Reason is because the crew-mechanisms are not working or to be more precise: They are in the game for cosmetic reasons.

Crew is irrelevant = cruisers are UP

Period.

(To avoid misunderstandings, by crew I mean: http://www.stowiki.org/Crew)
The only way for crew to become relevant is for Cryptic to enhance the Boff and Doff integration past keybind, macro, and proc placeholders to the point where they are the crew being injured or killed during space combat rather than the cosmetic crew figure.

We have a First Officer and a representative for the other departments. We acquire new Boffs from both missions and Doff assignments. There should be a hierarchy of battlestations after the officers regularly manning those stations. If a Boff is killed or incapacitated in combat, another should take their station. If another senior officer is not available then that post should fall to the first Doff in line under that department with the appropriate career proficiencies.

Since the assignment of new Boffs and Doffs can occur rather frequently, death of the officers in question should be permanent. More regarding the chance of this happening is discussed below. As they would not be using their armor and sidearms during space combat, their personal effects would be returned to your inventory. To keep it a little simpler, death of the officers would occur in sickbay following the battle and as Captain you would be informed of such.

Various injuries to the officers would induce various times for their recovery to complete recovery. Depending on the injuring sustained, you could have officers return to duty suffering a penalty to their stats relative to the type in injury sustained to the tasks they are required to perform.

Since the officers already have different rarities, they could also have different degrees of experience ranging from Green or Novice to Hardened with this being independent of rank. While the Very Rare officer would have a increased chance of survival because of his rarity his experience might be a detriment to that if he's a Green compared to a Rare or even an Uncommon officer who might be Hardened. The levels of experience could also have the effect of an additional percent to their skills much like the present achievments do for captains.

As the size of the crew generally increases with the size of the ship, Cruisers would have the crew advantage the number states they actually do and crew would finally be relevant. This would also add the possibility of loss to every encounter as the only penalty we have presently for failure is increased time spent at the respawn point and the use of a ship component.
All cloaks should be canon.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 452
# 526
01-10-2013, 07:48 PM
how does the non impact crew has relate to boffs?
How does killing boffs of permanently contribute to gameplay? it does not.
If you want to give crew more meaning, have ALL boff powers have their magnitudes scale based on Crew.
Ships with more crew get larger returns from boff powers, perhaps on such a scale that ships, who have small crews, compensate by getting higher grade boff powers.

So the cruisers crf 1 is as powerful as say 2.5 rapidfire from an escort, the crusiers healing and buffing is stronger early one and degrades as the fight drags on. Sci powers for example could benefit from additional crew based boosts, making carirers and other heavyly crewed science vessels a notch more dangerous (because right now the only danger from them is the incredibly amount of cheese they can deploy from their hangars).



Naturally, if you redo crew the first thing to look at is the wonky crew death ratio, where you end up with an empty ship after the first 30 seconds of the fight.



Actually, giving crew more meaning in ship operations might be the way to go here.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 527
01-10-2013, 10:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reynoldsxd View Post
how does the non impact crew has relate to boffs?
How does killing boffs of permanently contribute to gameplay? it does not.
If you want to give crew more meaning, have ALL boff powers have their magnitudes scale based on Crew.
Ships with more crew get larger returns from boff powers, perhaps on such a scale that ships, who have small crews, compensate by getting higher grade boff powers.

So the cruisers crf 1 is as powerful as say 2.5 rapidfire from an escort, the crusiers healing and buffing is stronger early one and degrades as the fight drags on. Sci powers for example could benefit from additional crew based boosts, making carirers and other heavyly crewed science vessels a notch more dangerous (because right now the only danger from them is the incredibly amount of cheese they can deploy from their hangars).



Naturally, if you redo crew the first thing to look at is the wonky crew death ratio, where you end up with an empty ship after the first 30 seconds of the fight.



Actually, giving crew more meaning in ship operations might be the way to go here.
It contributes much in the same way rag doll physics is superior to SNES TMNT baddie body explosions. From launch to now, we don't actually COMMAND a starship. We just drive one around with no real command decisions or consequences. You seem like an arcade type though so perhaps cruisers and all ships should be left in their present arcade state.
All cloaks should be canon.
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 27
# 528
01-10-2013, 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reynoldsxd View Post
Naturally, if you redo crew the first thing to look at is the wonky crew death ratio, where you end up with an empty ship after the first 30 seconds of the fight.

Actually, giving crew more meaning in ship operations might be the way to go here.

Right.

Actually they are not dead but unconscious (orange). Is it even possible for them to die (grey)?

According to the in-game description "cruisers have a large crew compliment which improves their repair rate and other crew related abilities such as engineering teams and boarding parties."

Yet this is completely irrelevant because:

- Most of the crew is disabled pretty early in a fight anyway.
- Repairs are done by bridge officer-abilities, so the crews repair rate is negligible.
- Having a low crew-count does not seem to have much negative effect.

Cruisers are supposed to be able to hang in a fight longer because of their large crew (and hull). If 25 people are unconscious on a 1000-man cruiser, the ship is perfectly fine.

Escorts are supposed to be forced to withdraw from a fight more often and much earlier to heal/replace the unconscious crew.
If 25 people are unconscious on a 50-man escort, the captain has to withdraw from the fight or else he will gradually loose control of the ship.

Add in science vessels which can provide medical services (healing crews) and there is much more tactical depth instead of arcade fighter jet-combat.

First problem is: Finding the right balance for such mechanics to work.

Second problem is: People dont give money for tactical depth, people want shooting and 'splosions.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 529
01-11-2013, 01:58 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Mainly though I was just curiuos if the time-sink issue was the primary issue of why Cruiser players are upset.
As Bareel said, "Yes"
No. I'm also upset that I cannot use effectively the primary offensive eng powers in those ships that can slot the highest versions of them. This means: Aceton Beam and DEM.

Either change the cruisers so they can use them (which would turn them into escorts - bad idea) or change the BOFF powers and fix equipement issues. Aceton as AoE with some fancy graphics to tell anyone who the heck is screwing with their damage would be great. Idea with constant FAW on one target for beams also sound cool. Both together would make cruisers complete and fixed.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 530
01-11-2013, 02:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
Idea with constant FAW on one target for beams also sound cool. Both together would make cruisers complete and fixed.
Single target BFAW with 100% uptime? Um... hell no... I mean have you seen what it does to single targets? I get on top of a tac cube in ISE or KASE and hit my BFAW2. Suddenly I see numbers flying, and I mean FLYING past. I mean... I would love it, since I love cruisers, but I would HATE it as an escort or sci ship. So as entertaining as this idea sounds, I will have to say no.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
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