Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,160
# 611
01-16-2013, 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Considering 9 points in shield emitters gives you a ~30% shield regen boost (which is shown by those pictures), and the passive is supposed to add on at least 250 per shield facing, only having those tiny numbers as shield regen (aka under 250 per facing) means it's probably the case and the passive is indeed disabled.
Emitter skill gives a regen boost? Are you 100% positive, I am not trying to be difficult I just don't see what in those pictures leads you to said conclusion.

Just tested with a +Skill console, no change show anywhere I don't think that is correct.

Last edited by bareel; 01-16-2013 at 11:49 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 612
01-16-2013, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Emitter skill gives a regen boost? Are you 100% positive, I am not trying to be difficult I just don't see what in those pictures leads you to said conclusion.

Just tested with a +Skill console, no change show anywhere I don't think that is correct.
Well something gives a regen boost, and that 1 extra point in shields can't possibly give the level of boost I am seeing. And I had faster recharging shields before I got the tier 4 passive. And the only skill that appears to affect shield regen is the Shield Emitter skill. So I can only conclude that is the case. But the whole point of that set of screenshots was to contest your statement that shield modifier affected regen rates, and I was wrong.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,160
# 613
01-16-2013, 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Well something gives a regen boost, and that 1 extra point in shields can't possibly give the level of boost I am seeing. And I had faster recharging shields before I got the tier 4 passive. And the only skill that appears to affect shield regen is the Shield Emitter skill. So I can only conclude that is the case. But the whole point of that set of screenshots was to contest your statement that shield modifier affected regen rates, and I was wrong.
Likely a rounding of shield power as it is a quite significant modifier. I got the basic formula down for the most part for shield regen/capacity the post is in PvP forums. Sadly though emitter skill doesn't boost it.

I got excited as that would have been awesome for emitter skill to boost it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 168
# 614
01-17-2013, 07:48 AM
I think the biggest problem people are encountering in this discussion (Cruisers vs. Escorts) is that their assuming that as a Tank a Cruiser needs to do so much damage that they out Damage the dedicated Damage Dealing ship. To borrow an analogy from Dungeons and Dragons: Cruisers are effectively the Paladins or Fighters of Star Trek Online, while Escorts are effectively the Wizards and Sorcerers. Science Ships for their part are the Clerics.

In essence the job of the Cruiser is to sit there absorb as much damage as possible and to protect the smaller vessels. In a similar fashion a Paladin and a Fighter, while not necessarily the class that offers the highest possible DPS in Dungeons and Dragons are both the largest target because they look the most menacing. Though smart NPC's in D&D will always target the Cleric or the Wizard, it is up to the Fighter and the Paladin to prevent that from happening. The job of the Escort however, is to deal as much damage in as short a time as possible, much like how a Wizard in D&D is capable of summoning the fires of hell down on its enemy.

Yes, even in D&D a properly built wizard can effectively take down the strongest of monsters single handedly, but it is not designed to do so right out of the gate. Much in the same way a properly built Escort can arguably tank a Tactical Cube, but not without risking serious damage to itself unless it has support from other ships. A Cruiser on the other hand can in theory take on the damage from a Tactical Cube and keep on trucking. It may not be able to singlehandedly destroy the Tactical Cube, but it would be able to provide decent covering fire.

This is similar if not identical to what happens in the actual Star Trek TV Series and respective movies. It was likely a Tactical Cube or something similar that attacked Earth in Star Trek First Contact. And it took 3-4 Escorts and the Enterprise-E to stop that ship cold. Even in The Next Generation it took ingenuity on the part of the crew to actually stand a chance against Borg vessels.

The Voyager for example required technology far in advance of its own, or borrowed from the Undine in order to actually stand a fighting chance against the Borg Armada. And that's saying something since at the time it entered the Delta Quadrant the Voyager was the peak of technology that Starfleet had to offer! The Enterprise-E itself was designed specifically to be able to battle the Borg (as was the Defiant, which is sad since it suffered the greatest damage in that battle).

Also, it is worth noting that the Enterprise-D's armament is nearly identical to that which is found on Cruisers in Star Trek Online. It has two beam arrays one each on the top and bottom of the Saucer Section, one beam array on the bottom of the Stardrive section, and what appears to be 2 beam arrays, one on each of the Pylons. Additionally it has 2 Forward facing Torpedo Tubes, and 1 Aft facing Torpedo Tube. I may be off by one beam array which if I am it is located on the rear bottom of the stardrive section (the previously mentioned one is on the forward bottom of the stardrive section). All told that is between 8 and 9 dedicated artillery devices. And this is all on a ship not designed primarily as a war ship.

The Enterprise-E probably has more Beam Arrays and Torpedo Tubes, but as I haven't had the opportunity to look at a model of the Enterprise-E yet I can't say for certain. Even if it doesn't the Enterprise-E does happen to have far superior weapons than the Enterprise-D had. That said, we are still talking about absolutely massive ships with horrible turn rates. Even in the movies they banked like Boeing 747's, not like Jet Fighters. For Jet Fighter turn rates we are going to be looking at either shuttlecraft or escorts, not cruisers.

So really comparing the various Enterprise's to the Defiant is an effort in futility.
______________________________

Last edited by helixsunbringer; 01-17-2013 at 07:53 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,130
# 615
01-17-2013, 08:31 AM
Misread, apologies
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,452
# 616
01-17-2013, 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer View Post
In essence the job of the Cruiser is to sit there absorb as much damage as possible and to protect the smaller vessels.
I don't really disagree with you there. My question is, how exactly does absorbing damage protect the smaller vessels?

It doesn't.

If your Paladin analogy held true, then the Cruiser's primary means of defending anything would be to put itself between the attacker and the attacker's target and force the attacker to engage it instead.

But that's not the way it works even in PvE. Mind you, I'm not sure that shielding allied targets is the right paradigm. But I really dislike the fact that Cruisers are pigeonholed into the healboat role with these magical shield and hull healing abilities that are NOT really canon. Self-healing, yes. Ally-healing, no.

There should be a solid reason supported by game mechanics why a cruiser should be a primary target and why survivability should matter, and there isn't one except for the fact that they turn like beached whales and as such they're easy targets. They are not much of a threat to any high-DPS unit following a hit-and-run strategy, and the high end Escorts simply don't fit the "glass cannon" description too well.

I really wish that the game made some attempt at following something reasonably close to a naval and air tactics paradigm. Carriers would fill their current role for long-range striking power. Cruisers would effectively be the heavy offense ships (Battleships, Bombers) that pound fortified units and primarily protect the carriers. Science Vessels would be used for electronic warfare, recon, and defense.

And Escorts?

I'm going to take some heat for this, but in my opinion a lone Escort should not be able to take out a Cruiser by itself unless it gets really lucky (the Defiant being a notable exception). A so-called Alpha strike might potentially cripple a Cruiser, but not destroy it unless it's already weakened. Tactically, they should fill about the same role that an assault copter, fighter jet, or a stealth bomber fills in modern military forces. Totally hit-and-run and somewhat more expendable than a heavier unit. True glass cannons whose primary defense is mobility and that function better in groups than alone.

Cruiser damage should be heavy but slow... Escorts should still be the kings of DPS, but because they're firing faster and hitting more often, not because they're doing more raw damage.

But that's not the game we have and I don't think we'll ever see more than a shadow of that.

I do think that one possible idea that would give Cruisers a better tactical reason to exist would be more effective long-range striking ability. That would act to give them an initial advantage at ranges where low turn rate is not a problem. That advantage then fades when the range closes and the combat turns into a dogfight, where the Escorts and DHC's shine and the Cruiser's primary defense is survivability, point defenses, and other Escorts.

This would also open up a role for a Recon/SciScort ship that can act as an advance scout seeking out targets on behalf of the long-range attackers and sniffing out cloaked/masked ships trying to sneak into close range.

Another idea is to buff up Beam Arrays in some fashion, so that a cruiser isn't effectively penalized for equipping them. Lots of notions have been floated about how to do that in a way that's fair to all of the classes, and I won't go into any of those in this post.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 113
# 617
01-17-2013, 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
I don't really disagree with you there. My question is, how exactly does absorbing damage protect the smaller vessels?

It doesn't.

If your Paladin analogy held true, then the Cruiser's primary means of defending anything would be to put itself between the attacker and the attacker's target and force the attacker to engage it instead.

But that's not the way it works even in PvE. Mind you, I'm not sure that shielding allied targets is the right paradigm. But I really dislike the fact that Cruisers are pigeonholed into the healboat role with these magical shield and hull healing abilities that are NOT really canon. Self-healing, yes. Ally-healing, no.

There should be a solid reason supported by game mechanics why a cruiser should be a primary target and why survivability should matter, and there isn't one except for the fact that they turn like beached whales and as such they're easy targets. They are not much of a threat to any high-DPS unit following a hit-and-run strategy, and the high end Escorts simply don't fit the "glass cannon" description too well.

I really wish that the game made some attempt at following something reasonably close to a naval and air tactics paradigm. Carriers would fill their current role for long-range striking power. Cruisers would effectively be the heavy offense ships (Battleships, Bombers) that pound fortified units and primarily protect the carriers. Science Vessels would be used for electronic warfare, recon, and defense.

And Escorts?

I'm going to take some heat for this, but in my opinion a lone Escort should not be able to take out a Cruiser by itself unless it gets really lucky (the Defiant being a notable exception). A so-called Alpha strike might potentially cripple a Cruiser, but not destroy it unless it's already weakened. Tactically, they should fill about the same role that an assault copter, fighter jet, or a stealth bomber fills in modern military forces. Totally hit-and-run and somewhat more expendable than a heavier unit. True glass cannons whose primary defense is mobility and that function better in groups than alone.

Cruiser damage should be heavy but slow... Escorts should still be the kings of DPS, but because they're firing faster and hitting more often, not because they're doing more raw damage.

But that's not the game we have and I don't think we'll ever see more than a shadow of that.

I do think that one possible idea that would give Cruisers a better tactical reason to exist would be more effective long-range striking ability. That would act to give them an initial advantage at ranges where low turn rate is not a problem. That advantage then fades when the range closes and the combat turns into a dogfight, where the Escorts and DHC's shine and the Cruiser's primary defense is survivability, point defenses, and other Escorts.

This would also open up a role for a Recon/SciScort ship that can act as an advance scout seeking out targets on behalf of the long-range attackers and sniffing out cloaked/masked ships trying to sneak into close range.

Another idea is to buff up Beam Arrays in some fashion, so that a cruiser isn't effectively penalized for equipping them. Lots of notions have been floated about how to do that in a way that's fair to all of the classes, and I won't go into any of those in this post.
I fully agree with this!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,130
# 618
01-17-2013, 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
*Snip*
100% agreed
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 619
01-17-2013, 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
I don't really disagree with you there. My question is, how exactly does absorbing damage protect the smaller vessels?

It doesn't.

If your Paladin analogy held true, then the Cruiser's primary means of defending anything would be to put itself between the attacker and the attacker's target and force the attacker to engage it instead.

But that's not the way it works even in PvE. Mind you, I'm not sure that shielding allied targets is the right paradigm. But I really dislike the fact that Cruisers are pigeonholed into the healboat role with these magical shield and hull healing abilities that are NOT really canon. Self-healing, yes. Ally-healing, no.

There should be a solid reason supported by game mechanics why a cruiser should be a primary target and why survivability should matter, and there isn't one except for the fact that they turn like beached whales and as such they're easy targets. They are not much of a threat to any high-DPS unit following a hit-and-run strategy, and the high end Escorts simply don't fit the "glass cannon" description too well.

I really wish that the game made some attempt at following something reasonably close to a naval and air tactics paradigm. Carriers would fill their current role for long-range striking power. Cruisers would effectively be the heavy offense ships (Battleships, Bombers) that pound fortified units and primarily protect the carriers. Science Vessels would be used for electronic warfare, recon, and defense.

And Escorts?

I'm going to take some heat for this, but in my opinion a lone Escort should not be able to take out a Cruiser by itself unless it gets really lucky (the Defiant being a notable exception). A so-called Alpha strike might potentially cripple a Cruiser, but not destroy it unless it's already weakened. Tactically, they should fill about the same role that an assault copter, fighter jet, or a stealth bomber fills in modern military forces. Totally hit-and-run and somewhat more expendable than a heavier unit. True glass cannons whose primary defense is mobility and that function better in groups than alone.

Cruiser damage should be heavy but slow... Escorts should still be the kings of DPS, but because they're firing faster and hitting more often, not because they're doing more raw damage.

But that's not the game we have and I don't think we'll ever see more than a shadow of that.

I do think that one possible idea that would give Cruisers a better tactical reason to exist would be more effective long-range striking ability. That would act to give them an initial advantage at ranges where low turn rate is not a problem. That advantage then fades when the range closes and the combat turns into a dogfight, where the Escorts and DHC's shine and the Cruiser's primary defense is survivability, point defenses, and other Escorts.

This would also open up a role for a Recon/SciScort ship that can act as an advance scout seeking out targets on behalf of the long-range attackers and sniffing out cloaked/masked ships trying to sneak into close range.

Another idea is to buff up Beam Arrays in some fashion, so that a cruiser isn't effectively penalized for equipping them. Lots of notions have been floated about how to do that in a way that's fair to all of the classes, and I won't go into any of those in this post.


Why would the Defiant be the only exception? As the first Escort class for the feds would it not be the base platform from which future escorts would be measured?

I agree on beam arrays, and have stated ideas both mine and others on how they may be buffed without further unbalancing the game.

As to glass cannons, they are if you remove thier defenses, mainly thier movement, and the fault with STO right now is that its more difficult to do so - certainly the NPCs are very bad at doing so.

We would have tougher better damage dealing cruiser play if some of the balanced ideas given where implemented without ruining Escorts in process. Some are very good ideas in my opinion though I do wonder if it would be accepted by the playerbase whom sees cruisers and escorts from the eyes of fandom?
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Last edited by bitemepwe; 01-17-2013 at 04:58 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,160
# 620
01-17-2013, 05:13 PM
If fans can accept the idea of slaughtering hordes of enemy ships while flying the UFP flag so to speak I don't see it being an issue.

All kidding aside as far as the shows go from my recollection aside from the 'hero' ship of the day the others were considered more of less of equal capabilities with the tide turner being said hero ship or ingenuity by one of them.

But really most perspectives on capabilities fall from what the 'hero' ships are seen to do. And just like Superman they are as powerful, fast, nimble, and advanced as the plot requires. Nothing more nothing less. And on that note it is off topic but I do have to plug B5 as being one of the few Sci Fi shows where even the most advanced hero ship, the White Stars, did tend to explode an awful lot when attacked by heavy hitters.
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