Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 49
# 61
11-26-2012, 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
I...reluctantly must agree that removing the auto-balancing of shields from Tactical Team does seem to be the easiest way to rebalance things. That or adding the rebalancing effect to the other two teams, though that would make Science Team the go-to must have since shield heal+shield auto-balancing would be massively OP. Making it's removal from TT the only real way do it.

As for the shared cooldown? That should stay. Each Team power heals an entire class of debuffs/status conditions.
Good point on the cleansing. Forgot about that.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 62
11-26-2012, 03:30 PM
The problem is that burst is so extremely high in STO at the minute that not having Tac Team would actually be worse for snoozers, because they can't manually maneuver themselves to protect a dead shield facing.

IMO one of the best ways to fix TT would be to have a good long look at reworking the crew mechanic and then tying crew (or "efficiency" or whatever Cryptic wants to call it this month) into TT's automatic shield distro. So a snoozer with a big healthy crew will distribute shields no sweat, while an escort that's taken a heavy beating and only has one or two men standing will struggle.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,046
# 63
11-26-2012, 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
IMO one of the best ways to fix TT would be to have a good long look at reworking the crew mechanic and then tying crew (or "efficiency" or whatever Cryptic wants to call it this month) into TT's automatic shield distro. So a snoozer with a big healthy crew will distribute shields no sweat, while an escort that's taken a heavy beating and only has one or two men standing will struggle.
That would work great... provided cruisers crew didn't die upon looking at eachother
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,079
# 64
11-26-2012, 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
The problem is that burst is so extremely high in STO at the minute that not having Tac Team would actually be worse for snoozers, because they can't manually maneuver themselves to protect a dead shield facing.

IMO one of the best ways to fix TT would be to have a good long look at reworking the crew mechanic and then tying crew (or "efficiency" or whatever Cryptic wants to call it this month) into TT's automatic shield distro. So a snoozer with a big healthy crew will distribute shields no sweat, while an escort that's taken a heavy beating and only has one or two men standing will struggle.
Yeah the ironic thing is a nerf of tac team would make escorts even BETTER as a tank vs a cruiser as it takes for freaking ever to turn one of those beasts around.

And as for crew mechanics that is funny. No matter crew size they die at the same rate typically and yet the smaller the crew the faster they restore themselves. In other words crew mechanics also favor the escort at the moment since they are all % of crew based.

Cruisers were not originally designed as the 'tank'. They were designed to keep up offensively by having an extra weapon slot. That failed thanks to weapon energy mechanics. They were also designed to have the same amount of effective health as the higher defense escort or stronger shielded sci vessel by virtue of the additional hull. That also failed because it doesn't matter what your total is it only matters how fast you can heal it and skyrocket your resistance rates.

The original design failed and now players have pigeon holed them into the 'tank/healer' role they were never intended for. And thanks to Tholian lockbox ships most PvPers won't even call them the best healers and I still have no clue what on earth players need a tank in any PvE content for beyond ANY SHIP AT ALL with a decent setup and perhaps a touch of cross-healing.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,046
# 65
11-26-2012, 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Yeah the ironic thing is a nerf of tac team would make escorts even BETTER as a tank vs a cruiser as it takes for freaking ever to turn one of those beasts around.

And as for crew mechanics that is funny. No matter crew size they die at the same rate typically and yet the smaller the crew the faster they restore themselves. In other words crew mechanics also favor the escort at the moment since they are all % of crew based.

Cruisers were not originally designed as the 'tank'. They were designed to keep up offensively by having an extra weapon slot. That failed thanks to weapon energy mechanics. They were also designed to have the same amount of effective health as the higher defense escort or stronger shielded sci vessel by virtue of the additional hull. That also failed because it doesn't matter what your total is it only matters how fast you can heal it and skyrocket your resistance rates.

The original design failed and now players have pigeon holed them into the 'tank/healer' role they were never intended for. And thanks to Tholian lockbox ships most PvPers won't even call them the best healers and I still have no clue what on earth players need a tank in any PvE content for beyond ANY SHIP AT ALL with a decent setup and perhaps a touch of cross-healing.
This is all 100% true... that's depressing from a cruiser stand point...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,079
# 66
11-26-2012, 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
You're proving you really don't understand what tanking is about either. The idea is not only to be unkillable and keep yourself alive.... you ALSO need to HOLD AGRO. If you're not HOLDING AGRO all your invincibleness is wasted. So you end up with a super tough ship that isn't taking advantage of its most beneficial traits because it never gets targetted! If you do end up getting targetted at all it probably happens when the escort that was actually tanking finally pops and the NPC baddies look for other targets.

How often do we hear this very same incorrect statement "tanking is about not getting killed"? How is it that holding agro is missed so often?
Wonder which ship is better at holding agro, the cruiser or the escort? The Sci Vessel doesn't really need to hold agro as they can just power drain the baddie into useless if desired but hey if they want they get to pack the most shiny new +agro consoles of all the ships on average now so that is kinda neat eh?

All signs still pointing to cruisers being underpowered no matter how hard some try to push them into the role they were not designed in any way to do because it is the only role other ships don't bother with.

*edit*
That just might be a good sig. "Cruiser tanks, cause everyone else had something important to do"
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 67
11-27-2012, 01:18 AM
You guys are probably wondering where I have been in this entire thread, since you guys know how much of a cruiser fan I am, and how much I feel that cruisers got slighted. Well I was just watching this thread, seeing where it was going, waiting for it to collapse on itself and turn into a cruisers vs escort war.

Well the Cruisers vs Escorts has happened. That's unavoidable. However I will now post my thoughts on this matter.

Cruisers are over-utilized. Seriously over-utilized, sometimes with almost disgusting incompetence. We have all had our fair share of rainbow oddys that have no defenses being flown by tac captains. We have also all had our fair share of engi cruisers with no teeth since the players again usually run rainbows and don't know how to use their limited tac BOff slots for maximum damage. And we have all seen the amazing healboats run by engis and science captains, but again, with no teeth.

Now Cruisers are working as intended. But because of how equipment and skills have been changed, the lines between roles have been blurred. Cruisers used to be tanky health-wise and have good shields. But since changes were made, that extra 6k hp average they have over escorts doesn't mean a thing. I know from personal experience since I can very VERY easily do 8k in one salvo (if not one hit). Escorts used to be squishy DPS. But since changes were made to heals and the like, they can now do the DPS and left the squishy at home asleep. Science used to be the CC and life ruining class. But since changes were made, many science abilities are downright jokes if not used properly and at very VERY specific situations and times.

Cruisers may have sustained damage, but they have no innate aggro drawing abilities which would make their increased hull and engineering consoles useful. Also, tanks in general are useless due to the inability again to draw aggro easily without having huge damage output (I can sometimes draw aggro off of escorts, but it's hard) and without sacrificing large amounts of skillpoints to do it. Wee all agree that a Science Odyssey with maxed out shield power and it's LtCmdr gone to sci will never die. There's just too much healing potential and way too much defense for it to die. But here's the catch. As great as a ship like that would be for tanking and survival, it has no way of drawing aggro, unless you again sacrifice skillpoints.

Many cruiser captains like myself fly more than one ship-type. I fly an escort and a cruiser, depending on my mood. But... my FPE, as amazing as it is, if it had aggro all the time, it would just go splat. Easily (despite me having put lots of effort into building it to survive). That being the case, I can't put points in if I want to fly anything other than a tank. Which most days I am ok with, but there are days when I just want to zoom around and splatter things with DHCs.

Which brings me to another blatent weakness that cruisers have. Their turn rate is reminiscent of an a container ship. Do you know how long it takes for one to turn and how far it has to travel? Yeah, that's your average cruiser. It's even worse with the Odyssey. The Odyssey is a fully loaded oil tanker when it comes to turn rate. Also, they can't get moving real quick, and are slow. I am ok with the low movement speed. It's all a matter of physics. But the turn rate? It's pretty much universally accepted that if all cruisers got a +2 turn buff, everyone would be happy. It's not enough to infringe on movement rights of science ships or escorts, however it remains enough to make cruisers a little less painful to fly.

Which brings me another weakness of cruisers. Engineering consoles. They are among the weakest out of all the consoles. First off, defensive consoles suffer from a rather insane defensive drop-off per console. I personally still don't get the system, despite attempts to explain it from Shimmerless (I thank you again for trying), but it's not a linear system, far from it. It's more of a logarythmic system, with the first console providing X%, the next one less, and so on and so forth to the point where a 4th console that boosts your defense by 20 (in this case neutronium) won't boost your defense by more than 5 or 6%. The same cannot be said of any of the other consoles, not to that extent. Tactical consoles will provide large boosts, with a 4th console boosting by 30% only being reduced to about 12-15%, and science consoles just outright stack in a linear fashion. That in turn makes it so you can have only 2 engi consoles available, and you will only have maybe 10-15% less defense than the same ship with 4 consoles available, whereas if you did the same thing with tac consoles, you would lose out on only 35-40% damage, and with science, you would straight lose out 50% of your science boosts. Sufficed to say, I don't like that XD.

My final issue with cruisers is actually my issue with this game. The class distinctions are either imbalanced or blurred beyond reason. If this game had a true trinity, with true specialization (as in more than SLIGHT differences between the classes) then it would be more interesting, and the ships as a whole would be better. The fact that a tank class only has maybe 10% more defensive ability than the damage class (with the damage discrepancy being far more than 10%) just doesn't sit right with me. And the fact an entire class (science) was just derped into uselessness also just is wrong to me. I think the main issue many players have with this game is that damage dealers can do it all. The added specialization ability of engis and science class captains really isn't enough to me. But that's just me being a prude, so you can probably ignore it.

My final statement (basically the TLDR): Cruisers are working as intended. But their role is not needed with the way this game works. As a result, they seem underpowered. And they are in a few respects. Or if not underpowered, they could use a boost.

As a final random statement, I still wish you could put the unique oddy and bort consoles onto those ships without sacrificing any of the 10 regular consoles. XD.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 68
11-27-2012, 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
defensive consoles suffer from a rather insane defensive drop-off per console. I personally still don't get the system, despite attempts to explain it
Armor stacks fine, just in a completely unintuitive way that will make your brain hurt. See if this helps.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1&postcount=75

As for the thread in general, I've given up trying to discuss it. If somebody over at Cryptic asks me "Hey Mo, what do you think about cruisers? Do they need some adjustments?" then I will be happy to give them an ear full. But I don't see any sign that Cryptic is paying attention or even that they think there is a problem. So discussion is kind of pointless.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 69
11-27-2012, 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
Armor stacks fine, just in a completely unintuitive way that will make your brain hurt. See if this helps.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1&postcount=75

As for the thread in general, I've given up trying to discuss it. If somebody over at Cryptic asks me "Hey Mo, what do you think about cruisers? Do they need some adjustments?" then I will be happy to give them an ear full. But I don't see any sign that Cryptic is paying attention or even that they think there is a problem. So discussion is kind of pointless.
As you said, makes most people's brains hurt. I understand how that works, and think it's incredibly stupid. And you're correct, most likely nobody is listening. XD
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,079
# 70
11-27-2012, 03:28 AM
I always thought it would be better if somewhere it listed your effective hull points somewhere. That would help a tad with the armor resistance confusion a bit.
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