Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,387
# 21
11-11-2012, 11:55 PM
I guess because the ques pop so rarely for me, I don't seem to run into a lot of people running the "broken'' gear outside of Ker'rat.

Or, maybe it's that I'm doing almost ALL my PvP on lower-level toons, so it's not really available to anyone.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 847
# 22
11-12-2012, 05:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Fair? PvP? In the same sentence?

The faster people learns that pvp is not about fairness the better.
This is very true. It's impossible, in any MMO, to create a fair PVP system, even if you put two players with the same ship and loadout, it won't be 'fair' as one side tends to have more experience than the other which results in it being 'unfair'.

That said I know our fleet, if we come across a poor PUG team will tend to sit out a player or two so that it's at least 'fun' if not 'fair'
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Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 23
11-12-2012, 06:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tobar26th View Post
This is very true. It's impossible, in any MMO, to create a fair PVP system, even if you put two players with the same ship and loadout, it won't be 'fair' as one side tends to have more experience than the other which results in it being 'unfair'.

That said I know our fleet, if we come across a poor PUG team will tend to sit out a player or two so that it's at least 'fun' if not 'fair'
You have a unique sense of what is 'deemed' fair.

Sad Pandas, Critz, TSI all host a very experienced roster.

TRH does not have an as experienced roster, yet we compete.

Doing things correctly, with coordination, and having pregame communication does not require "experience". This is the fundamental problem with people that do not PvP, they give up like you, and give answers that comforts them the most. In this case, for you it's "Oh they're just more experienced".

None of my guys thought they would be where they are today. Majority of them began when free to play started.

Let me give example of what a well versed pug group can do. It wasn't experience that won them this match, it was communication. The guy recording the match (sorry Hank) doesn't have an engineering commander ability on his tray! Despite this they had an incredible performance in the face of "experience" you have crowned.

Communication/Coordination is the King of PvP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zew7j_IuAiE

Last edited by paxottoman; 11-12-2012 at 06:56 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 661
# 24
11-12-2012, 07:37 AM
Well, just recently I pug`d an arena match and got faced with a premade S.O.B. Lets say the match was all but one sided. Besides them using everything from lockbox ships to heavens knows what, they too used what Hilbert would call overpowered consoles.

So Pax and everyone else, in case of the so-called "fairness": Was it really nessecary for them to use all that p2w, when they kinda knew before the match even started that they would win without breaking a sweat?

Simple answer is simply yes. Why not? It gives them the purchased advantage coupled with existing broken or exploitable mechanics availble. It boosts their ego and shows them high numbers after the match. Good for them! Bad for us.

So the next question would be: Would they for next time play fair? Again, why should they?
They payed good money to stay on top and with the best ships and equipment out there, and no self-righteous player is going to tell them what they cant do!

So comes the problem how one is going to enforce "fairness" when people are so hopelessly dependent on the p2w, that they will fight tooth and nail to defend it.

So in all REALISM, people would do themselves a huge favour to not mix pvp and fairness in the same sentence, cause pvp is not about being fair. Is about winning and having fun! Even if that fun is on the expense of the opponents.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,325
# 25
11-12-2012, 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
I've got nothing against TSI and they have done good for PvP generally speaking. Still, they had members who would not only use P2W, they'd also take advantage of known exploits and bugs from time to time in the queues.
With TBR being what it currently is, you could say "now" then...

It's just not feasible to go into an arena, get tossed around like a beach ball by the other team and told after you should have been prepared. With some going in with 2+ copies of TBR you'd need to go in with that sole thing in mind, and that's just madness. It can be said if you end up against a team of carriers stocked up with spam, or a pack of escorts etc. At the end of the day unless you know what you can expect to face, it's a gamble.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 26
11-12-2012, 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Well, just recently I pug`d an arena match and got faced with a premade S.O.B. Lets say the match was all but one sided. Besides them using everything from lockbox ships to heavens knows what, they too used what Hilbert would call overpowered consoles.

So Pax and everyone else, in case of the so-called "fairness": Was it really nessecary for them to use all that p2w, when they kinda knew before the match even started that they would win without breaking a sweat?

Simple answer is simply yes. Why not? It gives them the purchased advantage coupled with existing broken or exploitable mechanics availble. It boosts their ego and shows them high numbers after the match. Good for them! Bad for us.

So the next question would be: Would they for next time play fair? Again, why should they?
They payed good money to stay on top and with the best ships and equipment out there, and no self-righteous player is going to tell them what they cant do!

So comes the problem how one is going to enforce "fairness" when people are so hopelessly dependent on the p2w, that they will fight tooth and nail to defend it.

So in all REALISM, people would do themselves a huge favour to not mix pvp and fairness in the same sentence, cause pvp is not about being fair. Is about winning and having fun! Even if that fun is on the expense of the opponents.
I guess you don't play Golf.

There is something called a handicap in the game of Golf. Where you give an advantage to your opponent in the interest of having a more challenging match.

We all paid good money. They paid good money. I can tell you this about S.O.B, they are not using SN Doffs on us, know why? They ACKNOWLEDGE and RESPECT the vindictive nature of the SN Doff. They are using P2W because they can and want to. Which is fine, we employ strategy to undo P2W. If you are in a fleet that uses P2W and you dislike P2W, and would like to win against P2W without the use of P2W, then TRH is your fleet.

As for S.O.B. if this entails them using P2W and "god knows what" then so be it. The attitude employed at TRH is allowing a crutch for those that need that to level the playing field. TRH has played S.O.B. on several occasions, sure it's been rough and stressful but it's a challenge nonetheless. Does TRH have good relations with S.O.B. and the answer is YES! Why? They're people to play the game with, as opposed to people who simply "give up" or go to other games.

A win against P2W, coordination undid their P2W:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5M9Vg8gqNM

The realism behind it is that Hilbert is disgusted with P2W and finding it difficult to find a group of people who employ the same attitude as him. We back you 100% Hilbert. Coordination beats P2W, that's the bottom line. Coordination does lose to OP, example: SN Doffs. Which is why we use our deterrence policy on that.

Last edited by paxottoman; 11-12-2012 at 08:14 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 661
# 27
11-12-2012, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxottoman View Post
I guess you don't play Golf.

There is something called a handicap in the game of Golf. Where you give an advantage to your opponent in the interest of having a more challenging match.

We all paid good money. They paid good money. I can tell you this about S.O.B, they are not using SN Doffs on us, know why? They are deterred, they are using P2W because they need that crutch. If you are in a fleet that uses P2W and you dislike P2W, and would like to win without the use of P2W, then TRH is your fleet.

As for S.O.B. if this entails them using P2W and "god knows what" then so be it. The attitude employed at TRH is allowing a crutch for those that need that to level the playing field. TRH has played S.O.B. on several occasions, sure it's been rough and stressful but it's a challenge nonetheless. Does TRH have good relations with S.O.B. and the answer is YES! Why? They're people to play the game with, as opposed to people who simply "give up" or go to other games.

A win against P2W, coordination undid their P2W:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5M9Vg8gqNM

The realism behind it is that Hilbert is disgusted with P2W and finding it difficult to find a group of people who employ the same attitude as him. We back you 100% Hilbert. Coordination beats P2W, that's the bottom line. Coordination does lose to OP, example: SN Doffs. Which is why we use our deterrence policy on that.

The handicap shouldnt really be there in this game. This game should be about utlizing the skills and abilities every player is given for free without using money, and then sow something together to make a good team, e.g like in GW2. P2W disturbes that balance sorry to say.

As for the extra crutch that might be so, but I dont see the need to go overboard with it, and use it all for all its worth. Now SOB was not meant as a target to be hanged out, if they interpreted it that way I apologize, but it served as a bloody good example.

Fair enough. You guys can show off how to win against fleets who use extensivly P2W, but the problem is that core pvp fleets need to do the same before any change can occure. If only a few is going to do it, the rest will just freeload by using P2W, have the same coordination and still come on top most of the times, because of said advantage.
Cryptic in all its infinite wisdom isnt exactly helping out on this issue, especially when they introduce new ships, new consoles etc (Vesta being the lastest).
Worst part is that most folks will buy it too! *sigh*

The realism still persist that pvp and fairness dont go hand in hand, although i wish sometimes it did. If Hilbert feels disgusted, then im appaled and I directly loath P2W. Ive expressed that early and on most occassions on the fourms and ingame, to the point people are tired of my "complaining". Most of the old core of TSI left STO for the sole reason that P2W has ruined the game. Era refuses to return, Aythani refuses, Faithborn refuses, Linty refuses and im on the verge on quitting alltoghether. For all I know I want this game reseted back to 1.2 where skill meant something, and where people didnt achieve easy wins by paying themselves to victory.

SHEESH!
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 28
11-12-2012, 09:19 AM
Videos of teams overcoming other teams using "Pay2Win" is peripheral to the point anyway, since P2W or "cheese" doesn't have as much of a negative effect in games between two organized teams as it does in queue games. If anything the former have the advantage of being able to better spread out countermeasures through the team, whereas an un-teamed group lacks that support.

I'm not saying the solution isn't teamwork, it's just that no one really disagrees there and it's a moot point.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 518
# 29
11-12-2012, 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
Why do you think the fighters are not allowed to bring guns to a boxing match? A set of rules that makes the competition fair increases the fun of the fight.

Cryptic doesn't understand how balance in this game works, but that doesn't mean that we have to intentionally make the game worse by using all the stupid consoles.
+1 Perhaps the OP can take items from these responses and make a generalized list (which is the first step). Perhaps Borticus will kindly sticky this thread if the OP creates a list in his first post?

1) I know that many big fleets out there will not use SNB doffs (yes, even post nerf) unless they are being used on them.

2) TBR is definitely broken and and is a no-no in fair play

3) "Danoob" shuttles

Those are to get the list started (at least until Tuesday for one of them)

While no one can stop people from using exploits, broken items and the like, at least the knowledge can be increased and culminated into a "community endorsed" list to show cryptic what is wrong about their balancing.

Make this thread serve multiple purposes.
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!

Last edited by tfomega; 11-12-2012 at 09:45 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,530
# 30
11-12-2012, 09:55 AM
We are so deep into the P2W crap that there is no way we can overcome this without the Devs.

Throw away your RMC, Lockbox Ships, universal consoles, Mk XII purples, Mk XII [acc]x3, 1000 day vet ship, pre-order bonuses, and pretty much anything that you had to stick with the game to acquire in the first place.

Don't get me started on the latest i7, Naga and what not.

Balance won't come from us not using danoobes, SNB doffs or whatever FOtM happens to rock someones boat. I m sure that s not what you wanted to hear, but after seven seasons this has become painfully obvious, imv.

instead of going with a sportsmen like attitude, as they do with CO pvp, befitting the IP , cryptic wants OP toys to fuel greed and impulse buys. They either don;t understand the concept of powercreep (which would make them very very bad at their jobs) or they don't care. While we're at it this is cryptic's game, not PWE's, or atari's, or the liberal media's, or whatever scape goat the CDF likes to raise.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 11-12-2012 at 10:02 AM.
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