Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,587
(I apologize about the long, confusing title, I wasn't sure what would be the best way to put it, so I thought I'd just put it all. This thread might also sound very confusing as well)


This is from a mostly non-Foundry familiar player. Namely, I'm not familiar with how the Foundry itself works, nor am I creative enough to make anything good from it. I made one mission once, as a poor, sickly excuse of a mission, my first one, and trust me, you don't wanna play it.

BUT I have played Foundry stuff before, both in just legitimate missions, and the console clickers.

I won't deny it, I used em, I used em and helped my fleet with the dil and FMs earned, because it helped the whole. They're being removed later in the season 7 launch. I don't agree with it, but I can and do completely understand it. Hate me if you want.

Now, I know that is something you all were wanting, Foundry authors, no more console clickers.

My question is:

Is that all you want to go though?

I really hope not, I've read a few thread on here, and you all mostly seem to want two things above all:

1. Improvements. The ideas vary, but you all seem to just in general, want improvements, be it better UI, or more elements/systems to work with, and so on and so forth.

2. Bug fixes. Perhaps this can go hand in hand, but considering how well you all can do with even what you have (I really do think that), just bug fixes alone would probably help considerably.

Now, more to my main question:

Do you, Foundry authors and Foundry-playing players, want other kinds of missions to go?

I'm not trying to be a jerk (to put it mildly here) or anything though, just being straightforward.

I really really hope not, at least not within the major exploit range. Console clickers, aside from the exploit, seemed to mostly tick you all off because they'd get high ratings, pushing the 'real' missions out of sight, etc.

Obviously something like say...the Nagus dailies, seem ok to everyone (I've yet to see anyone complain about them), but what about like...

Accolade missions? Those in a way are an exploit, because a person is using the Foundry to do something they normally wouldn't be able to, at least to a point. Take for example, the Fek'ihri. There are NO Fed missions which allow you to kill them, so you can never get their accolades. Or harder to find enemies, like the Devidians, I don't think anyone wants to run those FE missions THAT much.

I really hope missions like that are on the 'ok list' even if they often times don't have a story or anything, because they still can be useful, and they are a far cry from the console clickers at least.

I realize this all might be a little insulting somehow, but it isn't meant to be.

Instead, I realized that while console clickers are gone, there could be a new exploit coming over the horizon soon:

An auto-completing mission.

I don't mean like the console clickers, but missions that would qualify for the 'ok mission' for the daily, but not require the player to do much of anything still. It would probably consist of one of two things:

1. A large battle, in ground or space, where hordes of NPCs just kill each other off (easier to do in space probably), then just kill the final ship to end it.

2. A 'pit' where you can send your BOFFs, and just slaughterfest some NPCs on the ground, with one group after another beaming in to die, without having to do much on your captain.


Could be other possible auto-completes in different terms, I don't know.

Maybe I am being paranoid, and the new 'security' in place will prevent it, but...I felt it worth while to at least say something now, before the next (very legitimate) gripe you all have is, 'auto completing missions are just as bad as the console clickers!'

Again, not trying to be rude or insulting, and this could be rather confusing, I just had a lot to say.

Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,423
# 2
11-13-2012, 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
This is from a mostly non-Foundry familiar player. Namely, I'm not familiar with how the Foundry itself works, nor am I creative enough to make anything good from it. I made one mission once, as a poor, sickly excuse of a mission, my first one, and trust me, you don't wanna play it.
So you say I might not rate it highly, but I would rate it fairly, and I would gladly offer whatever advice, help , you were looking for to improve within the limited tools we have. i find that the Foundry much like anything else in the game is better learning from those who know, much like PvP or STFs or Builds, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
BUT I have played Foundry stuff before, both in just legitimate missions, and the console clickers.

I won't deny it, I used em, I used em and helped my fleet with the dil and FMs earned, because it helped the whole. They're being removed later in the season 7 launch. I don't agree with it, but I can and do completely understand it. Hate me if you want.
Oh (Back of hand to head), how could you ? How could you take advantage of the exploit that the Dev team left in the game ? You are obviously a very naughty person, I must obviously hate you now. Forgive the dramaticism, but honestly, no one is going to "hate" anyone for using what the devs were continuing to allow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
Now, I know that is something you all were wanting, Foundry authors, no more console clickers.

My question is:

Is that all you want to go though?

I really hope not, I've read a few thread on here, and you all mostly seem to want two things above all:

1. Improvements. The ideas vary, but you all seem to just in general, want improvements, be it better UI, or more elements/systems to work with, and so on and so forth.

2. Bug fixes. Perhaps this can go hand in hand, but considering how well you all can do with even what you have (I really do think that), just bug fixes alone would probably help considerably.

Now, more to my main question:

Do you, Foundry authors and Foundry-playing players, want other kinds of missions to go?

I'm not trying to be a jerk (to put it mildly here) or anything though, just being straightforward.

I really really hope not, at least not within the major exploit range. Console clickers, aside from the exploit, seemed to mostly tick you all off because they'd get high ratings, pushing the 'real' missions out of sight, etc
So, can't speak for anyone but me. Console clickers don't have high ratings. They have very average ratings. They appear high up on the "Hot" filter because people play the heck out of them. It honestly , simply ticked me off because it was an exploit. Plain and simple.
An unintended and for too long unaddressed biproduct of the foundry system, that allowed players to "game" the system in a way that was never intended. For the record, I am also in favor of the B'tran nerf which was a by product of the switch from end game emblems to dilithium. Exploits suck. It's that simple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
Obviously something like say...the Nagus dailies, seem ok to everyone (I've yet to see anyone complain about them), but what about like...

Accolade missions? Those in a way are an exploit, because a person is using the Foundry to do something they normally wouldn't be able to, at least to a point. Take for example, the Fek'ihri. There are NO Fed missions which allow you to kill them, so you can never get their accolades. Or harder to find enemies, like the Devidians, I don't think anyone wants to run those FE missions THAT much.

I really hope missions like that are on the 'ok list' even if they often times don't have a story or anything, because they still can be useful, and they are a far cry from the console clickers at least.
I agree that such missions are needed, but not the total grindfests that are out there now. Heck, give me 12 seconds and I can come up with a story that will let you kill wave after wave after wave of enemy. So, yes, we need such missions, I just think we can hold them to a slightly loftier standard is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
I realize this all might be a little insulting somehow, but it isn't meant to be.
I'm not feeling insulted at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
Instead, I realized that while console clickers are gone, there could be a new exploit coming over the horizon soon:

An auto-completing mission.

I don't mean like the console clickers, but missions that would qualify for the 'ok mission' for the daily, but not require the player to do much of anything still. It would probably consist of one of two things:

1. A large battle, in ground or space, where hordes of NPCs just kill each other off (easier to do in space probably), then just kill the final ship to end it.

2. A 'pit' where you can send your BOFFs, and just slaughterfest some NPCs on the ground, with one group after another beaming in to die, without having to do much on your captain.


Could be other possible auto-completes in different terms, I don't know.

Maybe I am being paranoid, and the new 'security' in place will prevent it, but...I felt it worth while to at least say something now, before the next (very legitimate) gripe you all have is, 'auto completing missions are just as bad as the console clickers!'

Again, not trying to be rude or insulting, and this could be rather confusing, I just had a lot to say.

So let me point you to a clarification posted by a Dev in another thread :

Quote:
Originally Posted by rehpic View Post
A foundry mission will count towards the daily wrapper mission if its average play time is 20 minutes or longer, not the 30, 45, or 60 minutes that have been suggested by various posts in this thread. So completing three such missions should take a bit over an hour.
Easy enough I say.
In order to get the 1440 Dilithium, it takes about an hour of your time. Probably a little bit more. Missions like the hordes of NPCs kill each other would have 2 problems. Never last long enough is 1. Variation in players computers. Such a mission as you describe would be terrible on lower end machines frame rates etc.

So, as a foundry author, armed with the new info from rehpic, I am going to embark on making a series of 3 mission episodes comprising slightly more than 60 total minutes playtime.

I see it this way.

Yes, the Devs nuking this sucks for a lot of people. Not everyone feels the way I do and thinks this is great , and big thumbs up to the Devs for addressing the console clickers. Sorry about that. Seriously. I'll do my best to put together a couple series of dailies to fufill the new wrapper requirements as clarified by rehpic in the quote I used. It's the best I can do.

No one was asking to nerf the console clickers specifically to hurt other players in the game. It was an exploit. No one can argue that point with an ounce of justification.

As Foundry authors , we're part of the community. The same community that has been calling for more content since i joined the game. Whether it is to your tastes or not ... there is a LOT of content in the Foundry. Much of it , excellent.

Anyway, like you I rambled on.
Probably said enough for now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 144
# 3
11-13-2012, 01:33 AM
I don't care about exploits if they're incidental to an otherwise good and well written mission. If someone writes a Fed oriented Ferth... Fthi... Fthlrerk... Klingon demon mission that addresses the in-universe subject well and is just a good mission regardless of accolades to be had... then I don't care if it lets people get an accolade they ordinarily couldn't. The means justify the ends, so to speak: if you wrap your exploit up in a spankin' good mission, you've earned it, IMO.

Missions that are just "Go to teh plananet and shoot all the doodz,. Theys lots of dem and you gets they stuff an lots XP", those I have no sympathy for. I feel nothing either way for them or those who mourn them. Chaff in the wind.

If self-completing missions like the ones you describe do emerge, they'll likely eventually be addressed in the same way and for the same reason as the clickies. The fact that the clickies are being directly addressed like this indicates the devs do consider such shenanigans worth their attention, so I'm not too worried about that.

Last edited by connectamabob; 11-13-2012 at 01:37 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,281
# 4
11-13-2012, 06:24 AM
Technically Feds can fight the Fek'Ihri in the "No Win Scenario" mission.[/nitpick]

I agree with removing the clickies - as much as I use them to help my fleet - because now the real missions will get a bit more attention. And the "Hot" filter will be pure again!

As for nerfing B'Tran, I don't think that was a good idea because now Gamma Orionis is just another sector block. Nothing special about it at all.

Grind/accolade missions I'm fine with. Some players don't care about story and that's okay.
"It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
-- Q
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,045
# 5
11-13-2012, 08:21 AM
Under the "20 minute minimum to count for wrapper" rules, a 20 minute long auto-complete mission is not as bad of an "exploit" as you think...

Considering that the character in question needs to be left running in these missions for a full hour, AFK or not. This is an hour that said toon (and maybe account) can't earn anything else but the "free" dil for that hour...''

A lot better (and less "exploitative" , IMO, then spending said hour logging into 12 different toons getting 1440 per...
Well, with the upgrade announcement leaving NX and Connie fans in the dust again, can we restart / revisit the T5 Connie and NX threads - since they will no longer be "truly" endgame ships... (after we get the T5 versions, it'll be time to see them added to the T5U upgrade charts too...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 764
# 6
11-13-2012, 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
Technically Feds can fight the Fek'Ihri in the "No Win Scenario" mission.[/nitpick]

I agree with removing the clickies - as much as I use them to help my fleet - because now the real missions will get a bit more attention. And the "Hot" filter will be pure again!

As for nerfing B'Tran, I don't think that was a good idea because now Gamma Orionis is just another sector block. Nothing special about it at all.

Grind/accolade missions I'm fine with. Some players don't care about story and that's okay.
I agree with you 100%

Clickies were bad and I felt dirty doing them, over and over and over..

Nerfing B'tran BAD. I was running missions over and over again in the B'tran sector, now......I'll probably never go there. EVER More wasted game space.

You see, I never had a problem do THESE missions over and over again, because they featured actual valuable REWARDS for my time. UNLIKE the ridiculous way the STFs were handled with those mythical drop rates and need ninja's and all.

I'm also not in favor of reducing ANY dilithium source at this stage, whether it be exploit or not, while at the same time increasing the need for dilithium on the other end.

That's just screw turning and I will guarantee you it was NOT done to preserve the sanctity and integrity of the game. It was done to increase revenue via zen purchases. Plain and simple. Don't fool yourself.

With all the bugs that sit in this game, some since launch, that NEVER get addressed, all of a sudden it's, Let's clean up the "exploits".... give me a break. It was merely an opportunity to increase revenue and THAT'S the only principle motivation behind every action now.

I've never been bothered by the grind accolade missions, in fact I'd criticize Cryptic sharply if the were to take them out, since they turn around and released the no win scenario mission. Wouldn't that be just a bit hypocritical?
PLEASE fix the Dauntless. See suggestion below
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
how to make it too good (10/10)- if the LT tac was uni, it would probably be a 9/10, an extra LT eng or sci would have wonderful usefulness. this actually sorta, kinda, NEEDS to happen. 10/10 would make the LTC universal instead.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 845
# 7
11-13-2012, 09:01 AM
I don't think you can create a 20 minute mission where the mobs just kill each other. There's a limit of 25 enemy groups, which means 12 on each side, and I think the fight will end long before that point. I could be wrong, however. Maybe if you only used battleships it could take that long.

I don't have a problem with missions like the Nagus Dailies personally. However, I think it's problematic that the Foundry rewards still encourage the playing of shorter missions. Ideally you'd get the same reward for spending an hour playing three 20 minute missions, or one 60 minute mission.

For that reason, the current change is really just a hack to fix the problem of console clickers. A more comprehensive change to award exp, etc, based off of mission duration would be much better.


Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,616
# 8
11-13-2012, 09:03 AM
One question to ask before panicking about the next exploit: Do the devs worry about inefficient exploits - that is, ones that actually reduce the exploiter's ability to generate resources? Many games don't actively hunt these down.

So far STO only seems to be addressing efficient exploits - ones that let the exploiter generate more resources in less time. Overlapping daily objectives that only benefit one faction, instant completion missions, the old self destruct EC farming missions, etc.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,587
# 9
11-13-2012, 11:17 AM
Alright, well, last night I was tired, excited, and...maybe...potentially...slightly, drunk, off my stockpile of Romulan Ale that we won't need for the SB Bartender anymore. So my head today is much more clear.

To start, my foundry mission, at the time, I don't think it actually published, now that I thought about it. And this was several months ago that I did it, so who knows.

True though, that my auto-completing idea probably wouldn't be very effective as an exploit.

I will say, I did and do use a few Foundry missions to help with kill accolades, which are pretty much just 'kill lots of dudes'. I'll be honest, some kill accolades are ANNOYING to get.

But not all of them are. I use the Fek'ihri as an example again. I did find a mission, about 45 minutes is how long it took me, about the Federation discovering the Fek'ihri, and your battle against them, etc. Another mission which is purely to get the Wicked accolade (kill 200 Fek'ihri ships) had somewhat of a story still. And a third one, was a ground mission where you killed Fek'ihri, with no story.

Or in short, all three examples do exist at least.

I suppose a good part of my post from earlier is rather moot at this point, because part of me was still rather annoyed at all the changes, even that tired and such, the fault was my own really.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 10
11-13-2012, 03:47 PM
Dumb question, but do we actually have hard requierments abotu what qualifies for the daily? Was going to tst in game but they seem to have wiped all the missions.
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