Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,028
# 231
11-14-2012, 08:22 AM
Regarding "stupid virtual goodies."

I agree somewhat, personally.

But there are a few factors to look at.

1) Taxing or risky play calls for more reward. The ideal is intrinsic value but you can't always have that.

2) In a story, characters change. This is modeled in most MMOs through powers and gear. In a Campbellian mythic cycle (and, yes, invoking Campbell is un-PC) or Jungian dream analysis model, there has to be some kind of transformation. In a book or dream, sure, the goal of this transformation is the reader... and I see this as being what Kirkfat is getting at. This isn't a book. This is an RPG. Immersion demands that the CHARACTER be transformed. This is what gear and costume pieces do.

3) Online businesses tend to rely heavily on emotional appeal, moreso than brick and mortar. That feeds the collector urge but I'll add that Kirkfat isn't wrong to say that there should be more emotional investment. And that will drive bigger and better sales.

There's a reason why people pay hundreds of dollars for WoW virtual items and it boils down to emotional investment. That's a mix of factors, surely. You've got Overlord's socializer argument. There's the minmax achiever argument of time versus money. There's Kirkfat's argument of enriching narrative. (Say what you will about WoW, they apply dramatic stakes to their content and aren't afraid to pull out emotionally manipulative stuff like a sick kid or a flirty NPC or starcrossed lovers.)

These are all valid but all dead without the emotional appeal of how you spend your time, what you can show off to your friends or do with them, and narrative emotional appeals. Which I think Cryptic is entirely too shy about getting manipulative with, although New Romulus is progress on this point. And, sheesh, its the basis for the new Acamarian stuff.

But it doesn't change the issues presented for STFs' survival and challenge based casual social play.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,069
# 232
11-14-2012, 08:27 AM
STFs dead ....checked.
EliteSTF channel almost dead (still good for trolling ) ...checked.

What Ill never understand is why people read these blogs with Stahl.He is the person who said in a blog "most people dont pay a dime" (I know a fleet with new people (~250) who spend ALOT of money.Im sure that percent is everywhere in game) and after sometime "sto is number 1 in US for pwe".That was an example and I can say now that these blogs are like a place where to BS people.

Now I dont mind the dilithium nerfs ,I dont even mind that I have to "play" that thing called starbase 24 with 400000000000000000000000 enemies at 2 FPS on a high end PC ,but I do mind when I report bugs (like the textures and graphics one ,or the lack of dilithium in STFs ) and they BS you by saying "its something that only happens on tribble".

Im not going to stop playing STO or spend money in it ,I wont give away my s**** ,but I know from now on who will BS me in blogs and will ignore these blogs simply because I do not like to get large quantities of BS .
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 949
# 233
11-14-2012, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Regarding "stupid virtual goodies."

I agree somewhat, personally.

But there are a few factors to look at.

1) Taxing or risky play calls for more reward. The ideal is intrinsic value but you can't always have that.

2) In a story, characters change. This is modeled in most MMOs through powers and gear. In a Campbellian mythic cycle (and, yes, invoking Campbell is un-PC) or Jungian dream analysis model, there has to be some kind of transformation. In a book or dream, sure, the goal of this transformation is the reader... and I see this as being what Kirkfat is getting at. This isn't a book. This is an RPG. Immersion demands that the CHARACTER be transformed. This is what gear and costume pieces do.

3) Online businesses tend to rely heavily on emotional appeal, moreso than brick and mortar. That feeds the collector urge but I'll add that Kirkfat isn't wrong to say that there should be more emotional investment. And that will drive bigger and better sales.

There's a reason why people pay hundreds of dollars for WoW virtual items and it boils down to emotional investment. That's a mix of factors, surely. You've got Overlord's socializer argument. There's the minmax achiever argument of time versus money. There's Kirkfat's argument of enriching narrative. (Say what you will about WoW, they apply dramatic stakes to their content and aren't afraid to pull out emotionally manipulative stuff like a sick kid or a flirty NPC or starcrossed lovers.)

These are all valid but all dead without the emotional appeal of how you spend your time, what you can show off to your friends or do with them, and narrative emotional appeals. Which I think Cryptic is entirely too shy about getting manipulative with, although New Romulus is progress on this point. And, sheesh, its the basis for the new Acamarian stuff.

But it doesn't change the issues presented for STFs' survival and challenge based casual social play.
We probably are in agreement I'm also firmly in Kirkfats camp on the narrative enrichment, if anything it's that kind of game play that will keep Star Trek fans onboard.

I also feel kinda sorry for everyone who defended Cryptic/PWE, I knew what was coming I even joked that it should be called S7: Dilithium Apocolypse.

Damn shame.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 733
# 234
11-14-2012, 08:32 AM
A ha! "STFs will still reward Dilithium and there will be an Omega Rep project that converts marks into Dilithium, so we're replacing it, not taking it away." The quote is below, for those of you who want hard evidence of being lied to. Perhaps that "and" was a mistake, and he meant to say something more like "STFs will still reward Dilithium in that there will be an Omega Rep project that converts marks into Dilithium, so we're replacing it, not taking it away."

Quote:
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post
That's great, but you are gating players into very specific and grindy content to do so. And you are taking away one source of dilithium now with the STFs which were having a pretty good dilithium output.
Why don't I as the player have the absolute choice in how to earn that dilithium? Why don't episodes and patrols award dilithium? And fleet events?

Getting dilithium rewards into the old fleet actions is a good first step.
STFs will still reward Dilithium and there will be an Omega Rep project that converts marks into Dilithium, so we're replacing it, not taking it away.

In addition, we're adding Dilithium drops to all Fleet Actions as well as some other new Events.

All of this in Season 7
Join Date: July 29 2008
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 297
# 235
11-14-2012, 08:44 AM
Honestly, It's not that big a deal in my eyes. For a few reasons.

  • Make Dilithium more available to all level 50 players ? not just those playing on elite ? by increasing the average amount of Dilithium earned. We want the average amount of Dilithium earned by all level 50 players to exceed 13,250 per week and will be monitoring and adjusting Dilithium rates to ensure this happens. This also means moving Dilithium rewards to missions that are more accessible to the average player (Normal Fleet Actions) and away from Elite only STFs. STFs will still reward Dilithium indirectly, but Fleet Actions now reward Dilithium each run.

So this is one thing that stands out to me. As everyone is all upset about the STF changes, look at this statement from Stahl. Now i'm a pretty savvy STF player, and know how to do them, and did them regularly. However, what about the people who weren't in the EliteSTF channel? How did they do STF's to get dilithium? We all know the challenges or just queuing up for an STF and the chances of failure were pretty high. So really unless you knew how to run the STF's you couldn't get that source of dilithium, unless you got lucky. So where do they move the dilithium to? Fleet Actions! Much easier to do and requires much less skill to complete. This opens up dilithium to people who couldn't do the STF's. Granted you can still get dilithium from STF's by trading in the items you get, so it still puts some incentive to play them even after you get your gear, and lets be honest, most of the EliteSTF runs I've done didn't take that long to complete because everyone was pretty competent.

  • Make Dilithium rewards balanced and consistent. No specific content should be aberrantly more efficient than others. We will be removing or adjusting reward tables anytime we find missions that are allowing players to earn Dilithium at an aberrant rate.


The only way most people would farm dilithium prior to Season 7 was STF's, one click exploit foundry missions, and B'Trans. Now think about this for a moment. You have to do the same 3 things over and over and over again, wouldn't this get boring after a while? The big change with Season 7 that I saw is that dilithium is now more spread out though the game, and not earned by just one or two major things. It expands my play and gives me things to keep my interest in. As a Foundry author I really hated those one click exploit missions because I spent so much time on my own missions, and hardly anyone played them. You would get the occasional person but everyone was using the Foundry in a way it wasn't really intended, so i'm pretty thankful for that change alone. Perhaps now the quality of missions in the Foundry will improve, and be worthy of play.

  • Ensure that the costs for obtaining similar types of gear from the Fleet System, Reputation Systems or Dilithium Stores are balanced and consistent within our expectations for how long it should take to obtain the best gear in the game. We will continue to monitor and adjust store prices as necessary to keep this balance as new items are added to the game.


let's rewind the clock 3 or 4 months. Remember when everyone was screaming about how they ran countless STF's and couldn't get the gear, and they would run 1200 Infected space missions and not get the MK XII shield? Ya this fixes it. You invest equal amounts of time, and you too can get whatever gear you want, and don't have to run 1200 Infected space missions unless you really want to. Dilithium gear? Who would wear that when you could have the STF gear? Thanks to some of the changes now you can have a choice for what you put on your ship or captain, and no one set is more OP than the next. Everyone ran 3 borg pieces and 1 MK XII MACO or Omega shield on their ship. Why? because it was FOTM and nothing else in the game was really worth it. Enter Season 7, where balance comes into the game. Want to run the Romulan shields that look cool and be functional? Now we can!

All in all I think all these changes help more of the players out there who are not as skilled as the Elite folks who have been around forever. It gives them an equal chance to enjoy the game as much as we do, and get all the gear and experience they need to make a difference overall. Really as Stahl mentioned it will take 10 days or so to get your MK XII gear if you put the time into it. How is that any different than running STF's for months on end to get a chance at getting the gear you wanted? At least now its guaranteed.

Anyway that's all i'm going to say about it. I doubt it will make much difference, but that's my thoughts either way. I'm still going to play STO because I like it and no amount of Rage is going to stop me!

Last edited by drudgy; 11-14-2012 at 08:49 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 306
Remember, this is a game that you, STO/PWE, want players to enjoy playing and not think about the hoops they have to jump through to get the prize (because hoops are fun). It is when you put up brick walls and expect them to treat the game as a second job that you end up the threads 25+ pages long with one common theme... "you ruined my game and lied to me." How about getting off the high horse and getting back to making a fun game, instead of a tedious game.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 733
# 237
11-14-2012, 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethoir View Post
There's no actual CONTENT anymore outside of those and the rare newly made Feature Episode Series.
See, this is the problem. Cryptic thinks that the items they sell in the C Store count as content. Maybe they do, depending on the definition of content. But what many people want is STORY content.

I've said it before, they don't need to make every set of new episodes a Featured Episode. Just use existing assets, get some good writing going (I assume Kestrel still works at Cryptic?) and make some new episodes!
Join Date: July 29 2008
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,332
# 238
11-14-2012, 08:56 AM
All I have to say is:

Make dilithium harder to earn for the members of the small fleet that I am in and my fleet dies, as do just about any other small fleet. Cryptic, if this is your goal, just tell me know so I can stop investing in my Fleet Starbase and I will just go sucking up to large fleets for membership.

What the heck are you thinking Cryptic?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 133
# 239
11-14-2012, 08:57 AM
Thank the baby Jesus for F2P. I'd be furious if I had to pay a monthly sub and be treated like this, and I'd be supremely annoyed if I was one of the unfortunate folks who just purchased the LTS promotion.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,214
# 240
11-14-2012, 09:02 AM
Yes, it's true that Dilithium is now easier to get than ever with it being shifted to FAs.

But what i don't get is WHY Cryptic needs the Elite STF players to dumb down their gameplay, too?

Why is it so important, everyone plays the same narrow content? Why would it hurt them if some people do it by STFs if they are capable, too and some by fleet actions if they want easy going?

Hell, I would probably alternate between the options depending on my mood and eventual
burn out on one kind of content.

Now i will do STFs at most until I finish the rep, because I just need the passives. My captain and the Boffs that matter are decked out in Mk XI/XII gear already.

Then I will stop more or less... This will happen early next year. And I suspect many peopel think alike. It will have killed of STFs and they will be back where they were before they got butch... remastered. Hardly ever played.

Meanwhile people will be sick of the Fleet Actions because they are to boring and tedious if you do them day on end instead of an occasional nice diversion.
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