Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 8
# 251
11-14-2012, 09:40 AM
Well i came back after a 10 month break because of cryptic ethnics and now i wish i wouldn't have. I have never seen a game with so much potential and a team with so much desire to kill it by do stupid **** like this. I am about fed up and ready to start looking for another game. Like many other have said i dont have the time for the season 7 bull****. I work 60 hours a week and have 3 kids. My time is limited and you just made it to where i nor others can level the fleet. Why in the hell did you put 2 of the same systems requiring the same **** when you know one system will be left out? (fleet) Everyone will be putting all their stuff into the rep system and not in the fleet system. Nice logic and thinking their. Not to mention taking away of the resource to be able to do this. That's brilliant or moronic. I will NOT play a game where i am forced to play the way you WANT me to play. I will play my own dam way. You just turned my fun and enjoyment in to pain and misery. Way to go dumbasses! And further thought... Why am i even typing this **** when every time i turn around i am complaing about your stupid bull****. That is not what a game is about. Its about listening to you players and doing what your players wish for not what you wish they would do or how you wish they would play. **** this stupid ignorant ass bull****! If you don't revert the dilithium i am done with your game. I'll go back to forsaken world and give them money. At least they havent lied nor tricked me or forced me into anything.

P.S. If i wanted a time based design i would play EVE.

Last edited by elkysium; 11-14-2012 at 10:15 AM. Reason: After thought
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,064
# 252
11-14-2012, 09:44 AM
We expect the market to fluctuate as players find the new balance, but in general we want players earning Dilithium to get a decent amount of Zen for their trade so that players who are putting in the most effort to earn Dilithium can find a market to trade the time they?ve spent in the game for Zen.
What about people such as myself? Even though I am using your Free to Play system, I am also injecting physical money into buying zen. Instead of being able to get the best ground weapons, ground gear, and space equipment from the c-store, I have to grind the hell out of "Star Trek: Online". You have created a system that rewards freeloaders than paying customers. Subscribers and zen paying customers should be more important than the ones who don't pay. While using your Free to Play system, I have injected around $220 into zen. I did all of that within the last four to six months.

Lobi store and lock boxes are not the solution. Obstacles standing in the way of someone making a physical purchase defeats the idea of injecting money. It makes people give up and walk away.

On the flip side of this issue, the high dilithium priced endgame equipment cannot be used for leveling, conquering the world, or fulfilling a personal destiny. "Star Trek: Online's" problem is a lack of overall substance. Outside of grinding for new ground and space equipment, the story and overall rewards for our effort are rather cheap to nonexistent.

Also, as a result of allowing the fleet modules to be sold in the exchange, you have taken away the core value of physical money. Instead of having two zen paying customers buying items, you ended up losing a sale from the whole process. If you guys are losing money at this point, you have no one else to blame.

When it comes to the dilithium exchange, I would put a minimum limitation on the price of one zen. 158 pieces of dilithium for one zen is a steal. It undercuts the value of the dollar.

You should want people to buy zen, so they can buy powerful c-store items to conquer the world. Only one problem to this approach, "Star Trek: Online's" endgame lacks substance, leveling, and passion.

Its sad that this game is all about the grind.

Its also very sad that this game doesn't value physical money.

Last edited by linyive; 11-14-2012 at 10:06 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,028
# 253
11-14-2012, 09:54 AM
I wonder what CBS thinks of S7: New Grind?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,044
# 254
11-14-2012, 09:55 AM
I just want to step aside and say this:

As an employee, I work to make things make sense and perform at high quality. I stress more about my jobs than most people I know. I'm the guy who gets out the brasso and cleans the door hinges if I've got a spare minute, without waiting for the janitor.

As a customer, I'm generally pretty amiable. I'm polite on the phone with customer service. I make friends with cashiers and retail employees easily.

When I get irritable, it's as a product tester, journalist, or critic, particularly when information is withheld or misleading. If I come off as a jerk in these comments, it's acting from that capacity.

I'll never forget when I was in a product focus group one time. They had me take a survey on restaurant types to put in at a food court facility. I put that I wanted sushi. Then we had a focus group with associations and feedback. Turns out, probably half of us wanted sushi and half wanted burgers. They flat out came out and told us that their goal was to get support for a burrito chain or maybe pizza. I gave them holy heck for running a focus group like that and making me waste my survey when they told me that they weren't reading surveys. I told them that if they only had two choices, there should only be two choices on a survey and that you do NOT solicit feedback from customers that you're not willing to consider. If the choice was pizza vs. burritos, that's what they should have been asking me about.

They had a survey that they were doing that they were trying to cook towards the highest profit operation. There is no point in conducting a survey when the outcome is decided... aside from the fact that NOT having a survey is arguably worse.

Don't tell me what I want. Even if you're right in the end, you'll wind up taking flack from me over it. It's not receptive. It's asking for feedback that isn't taken seriously and that is offensive to me. It's disingenuous.

I'll bet that so-called marketing team never forgot that focus group either.

Incidentally, that was a simple campus food service operation. And it should have been invisible. But they made a habit of doing marketing and focus grouping like that. And you know what happened? Students started making signs and protesting, lobbying for the college to terminate their food service contract. And I had zero involvement with that. Although I did get very vocal with them over the years and managed to get two of their better employees raises and reverse one firing.

That vendor is losing accounts left and right nationally now. And I chalk that up to them being institutional and internal loyalty focused over taking honest and well-meaning feedback. There is a problem when you start taking your co-workers' ideas too far above your customers', when you form in-groups. And I think Cryptic is unfortunately very susceptible to that kind of siege mentality in-group thinking.

And if some forum poster (who may have a good point) lashes out and either constructs a theory behind your motivations (which is fair if you aren't disclosing them) or calls your co-worker an idiot (which is unfair but the form negative reactions often take), then I think someone at Cryptic would be more likely to leap to the defense of a co-worker rather than honestly assess points on merits, where merits exist.

And I think that's a poor way to do business.

And, frankly, I wish we were all discussing this cordially over crullers and coffee but I'm on the outside here and when you're on the outside of a building with no windows and no phone line in, you either have to speak at a high volume or give up on communicating.

And I don't want to give up because, purely personally, I like you guys. And it hurts me a bit that your reaction sometimes is that you'd rather we give up on communicating. And I KNOW you've thought that.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 389
# 255
11-14-2012, 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by meurik View Post
Always nice to be proven right... I read people claiming "It's just a bug, the Dilithium will be added". I was cynical and said, something tells me it's currently "Working as intended". And I WAS RIGHT.

Thanks Mr Stahl, for lying through your teeth, and screwing over your player base yet again. Although I guess I shouldn't be too surprised when you insist in the latest Massively interview, that KDF were always intended as PVP only faction. Jack Emmert says otherwise...

I like what was done with S7 except the dilithium that was removed from STF's. I used to play 4 or 5 STF's a day and it would take around 1.5 to hours and I would get a lot of dilithium. As someone else pointed out we have kids, jobs, and don't have a lot of time to invest. And there is no way I will ever buy ZEN to buy dilithium. So I don't think people will refine more dilithium. They will be refining far less in fact... And I've stopped contributing dilithium to my Fleet's progress because I need it badly now. Sad.

Now for the KDF having always planned to be pvp only, I might be wrong here but that's not exactly what he said. The KDF was pvp only ever since STO went live. But I'm not sure he meant it was always intended we would be pvp only. I might be wrong but I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Other than that I love what they did with S7. All I need now is a Romulan playable character, Romulan BOFF and a D'deridex warbird as a reward from New Romulus for helping them
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 261
# 256
11-14-2012, 10:00 AM
Sorry, no amount of "internal deliberate" (you lads should invest in an editor) or long, mind-numbing posts full of jargon and double-talk on your part is going to disguise the BS here. This fan base, in largest part, are Trek FANS, which means even the numbest of us here are SCIENCE (a.k.a. intellectually-based) fiction geeks, and may have been born at night...but not LAST night.

So you reduce or eliminate the means for obtaining Dil through the avenues that have worked well, and force folks to use either the Rep system or Fleet actions to really rake it in because YOU feel that's how the game should be played. How about, rather than dictating to the player base WHICH venues should be explored, you provide EXTRA options, not limit them even further.

And you do this as we see steady and ridiculous increases in Dil costs for Fleet projects (many of which are not only WAY overpriced, but really stupid (tribbles and dance floors, anyone?)). Granted, it's our choice whether or not to buy the "upgrades," but you make a lot of folks' minds up simply based on pricing.

Sorry, Cryptic - I love this game, but this was a d%$k move...

Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge
(...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)

Last edited by clannmac; 11-14-2012 at 12:56 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 257
11-14-2012, 10:00 AM
Originally Posted by drudgy View Post
I'm glad you can enjou your dilithium with missions you like, really. But why should we step away from our endgame tough content because it gives damn poor rewards? Spreading rewards doesn't mean you have to pull the ones from endgame content.

Seriously, that's the first time I don't know what to do in game. I don't want to farm these mindless fleet actions, I have no interest in playing my favourite STFs, and knowing that I'll need hundreds of thousands of dil to buy my rewards from the reputation system is disheartening.

That's the very first time I'm utterly bored in STO, and I have (too) many hours of game. I used to enjoy a lot STFs, Fleet actions are boring, lack of teamplay and are complete selfish dps races.

Last edited by diogene0; 11-14-2012 at 10:02 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,645
# 258
11-14-2012, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by linyive View Post
Also, as a result of allowing the fleet modules to be sold in the exchange, you have taken away the core value of physical money. Instead of having two zen paying customers buying items, you ended up losing a sale from the whole process. If you guys are losing money at this point, you have no one else to blame.
I'm not sure if I understand your reasoning here. All modules come from the z-store, therefore all modules are paid for with zen. All zen is paid for with money. If player a buys zen and then buys modules to sell on the exchange to player b, it's no different than player b spending real money himself to buy the modules.

If it weren't possible to put those modules into the exchange, player a would have never bought them since he obviously does't want or need them (he wanted to sell them to another player)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,091
# 259
11-14-2012, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Check this out. I went back and found this:

It seems to me that Geko changed his mind or pushed a change through and Stahl basically said, "Eh. Whatever. I trust you, Al."

I like Al as a person but I think he tends to bogart design decisions away from the players, to get them playing how he wants. And I feel like Stahl just sort of shrugged at the change (with or without an internal debate: we'll never know) and decided to let him do it this time at the last minute without telling any of the testers.

So I retract my earlier point that it was a lie. It was a bloodless coupe by the systems team.
No it wasn't the systems team. This design is all Geko's. Geko is if nothing else very predictable. He has a very particular view in regards to designs. Even before you posted Daniel Stahl's quotes, I had a suspicious that Geko was involved in it. But I was dismissive it because he was over Systems. But that suspicious didn't go away.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 855
# 260
11-14-2012, 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
I'm glad you can enjou your dilithium with missions you like, really. But why should we step away from our endgame tough content because it gives damn poor rewards? Spreading rewards doesn't mean you have to pull the ones from endgame content.
To put this in another perspective:

STFs are "Endgame Content", playable at level 45-50, and currently reward ZERO Dilithium

Fleet Actions can be played from Level 3 (Starbase 24), or already at Level 1(2) if you are a member of a fleet (Starbase Fleet Defense), and now reward 1440 Dilithium upon completion.

Now, you Cryptic defenders (not referring to you diogene0, just quoting your post);

Why should I as an "Endgame" player, run the Endgame content for ZERO rewards, when I could (and should) rather run through the Fleet Actions during the course of my normal leveling on a new alt character?

STFs could (and should) reward SOME currency, even if it's as low as 240 Dilithium for Normal, and 480 Dilithium for Elite. Rewarding ZERO, reduces the incentive that players will want to play the content.

My choices boil down to;

1. Run Fleet Actions, gain 1440 Dilithium and "random loot"
2. Run STFs, gain 0 Dilithium, and "NO random loot"

STFs are funner and more challenging, but reward less.

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