Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 1 Does pvp lack
11-22-2012, 09:11 PM
This

The video kinda gave me a revelation. Does STO lack counterplay?
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,546
# 2
11-22-2012, 09:22 PM
i would say the stock abilities have it, but the p2w stuff introduced since that, fancy that we hate the most, DON'T.

the #1 thing that lacks counter play is the

GOD


DAMN


CARRIER PETS
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 791
# 3
11-22-2012, 09:51 PM
Great Vid.

It should be required viewing for game developers.

Unfortunately, I don't feel that concept fits into PWE's F2P model. They seem to think (and correctly so, apparently) that they will sell more virtual merchandise if that merchandise makes you feel more powerful. If it leaves your opponent with multiple options to counter, then their goal of making you feel all Kirk-ee was not accomplished.

The best part is, the stuff that pisses us off usually has no effect or viable usage anywhere other than PvP (snb doffs, I'm looking at you). You can't piss off an NPC, nor do you need a doff to strip an NPC's single buff.

The power creep in this game is increasing, and I fear for the viability of any PvP system in the future. There is simply too much going on to be prepared for everything. Even with a full team by your side. Hard counters are great, so are tactical and strategic counters. Some things just leave you with none... again, SNB doffs, timestop+Tric Mines, timestop period (I remember a dev once saying that any ability that allowed you to take your hands off the keyboard, when used on you, was bad and had no place in STO. This was used as justification for the PSW stun nerf), etc...

If the devs used the POV of Caster and Recipient when designing powers we might have something a lot more fun than we've got. Unfortunately, STO devs don't PvP and therefore have no understanding of the recipients point of view (with 1 exception, and he tries, but I feel his hands are tied behind his back... a lot).
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
We actually really don't like A2B, but it's a bit of a "third rail" situation. When we have the right fix to it, someday, we'll probably possibly maybe make it.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 4
11-22-2012, 09:55 PM
No it does not lack counter play. I wouldn't play it if it lacked it.

Which reminds me, this video reminds me of you Devoras. You should get more than the one character to experience counter play at its fullest extent.

I have 5 different kinds of tacticals characters. All different ships, all different specs.
I have 3 different kinds of science characters. All different ships, all different specs.
I have 2 different kinds of engineer characters. Different class of ships, and different specs.

I have 3 prototypes, (like in the video), and am developing them for different roles.

Counter play isn't something offered by the game itself, but also by the player's effort to experience and create it.

(gosh Hank now I gotta edit my post)

But yes, SN Doffs notably, Tric mines, and a few other stuff, threaten counter play. For the most part it's still afloat...

Last edited by paxottoman; 11-22-2012 at 10:03 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 412
# 5
11-22-2012, 09:56 PM
SNB Doffs, tric mines...



Visit the Inner Circle YouTube Channel to watch some pew pew PVP action!

Last edited by ilhansk; 11-22-2012 at 09:58 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 50
# 6
11-22-2012, 10:05 PM
Pax was obviously a good Boy Scout, prepared for anything
STO
Lifetime Member Since Jul-2010

Last edited by spherb; 11-22-2012 at 10:08 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 791
# 7
11-22-2012, 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxottoman View Post
No it does not lack counter play. I wouldn't play it if it lacked it.

Which reminds me, this video reminds me of you Devoras. You should get more than the one character to experience counter play at its fullest extent.

I have 5 different kinds of tacticals characters. All different ships, all different specs.
I have 3 different kinds of science characters. All different ships, all different specs.
I have 2 different kinds of engineer characters. Different class of ships, and different specs.

I have 3 prototypes, (like in the video), and am developing them for different roles.

Counter play isn't something offered by the game itself, but also by the player's effort to experience and create it.
When did they start allowing you to change toons in the middle of a match? I think you may have missed the point.

Yes, most of us have multiple builds to accomplish different things. I keep 2 copies of TBR handy in the event of Siphon Drones. Does the fact that TBR is an effective counter for me indicate that Siphon Drones have good counter play? No, in fact, it's horrible. You have to dedicate at least 1 player per siphon carrier to the task of neutralizing the siphons. That doesn't increase your options, it decreases them. I do not enjoy the task, though there is some satisfaction involved in neutering someone trying to exploit an OP pet (same with danubes).

How exactly do SNB doffs give the recipient more options to counter? Frequently, the only solution is to use it yourself to level the playing field. Again, that is fewer options, not more.

Timestop, again, no counters whatsoever. Tactically, you can maintain distance from your teammates to prevent the whole team from being trapped and tric'd, but that is again, only 1 option, not several.

The BOFF abilities in this game were designed with counterplay in mind. The "cashgrab" mentality currently ruling development decisions does not take counterplay into consideration, at all. If the only options you are left with are stay out of range/arc or join the party and do it too, then they have failed.

Alpha Strikes are a good example of where counterplay is good in this game (barring other outside influences). When a BOP decloaks for an alpha strike, you can pop TSS+TT, FBP, RSP, Subspace Jump, Turn to spread the damage over multiple facings, and so on... that is multiple options to counter. That is counterplay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
We actually really don't like A2B, but it's a bit of a "third rail" situation. When we have the right fix to it, someday, we'll probably possibly maybe make it.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,229
# 8
11-22-2012, 10:35 PM
Say you're faced with X, Y, & Z. You might have something you can do against X and Z. You may be SOL against Y. You might have something you can do against Z, but nothing you can do against X & Y.

It's not so much a case that there is a lack of counter play as it is a case that no, you can't have a counter for everything you may possibly face.

So does that instead raise the question not of counter play - but how devastating it can be to find yourself with paper instead of rock when facing scissors?

It's a gamble - you bring A, and you're fine as long as they bring B but not C. Likewise, they're gambling in bringing B that you're not going to bring A - or - they're gambling that you're bringing A to deal with B when they're bringing C.

One could say - it's a team game - maybe folks need to sacrifice a little - step away from the min/max specializations that they've done to look at building things that in Match 1 might not do them as good as it does in Match 2... but you never know what you're going to be facing, so it's better to risk being mediocre than to risk the need to come to the forums to complain?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 791
# 9
11-22-2012, 10:52 PM
I like Horizon's list, so I'll use it as an example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post
i was hoping someone would bring up borked gear and powers.......

which is kinda why i asked how morality impacts you in PVP.... and since its thanksgiving, i thought it might bring out the best in us.

unfortunately, this game still has lots of balance issues. there are 8 million things going on, and sometimes its hard to even know where to begin to tackle the list of: this is really messed up....

last night while pugging it and raging in OPVP with maverick and lantern about politics, in several matches i found myself recieving a combo that looked like this:

you have now been:
subnuked
theta'd
AMS'd
grav pulsed
time bubble thingied
caught in a tykens (btw, who the f is running tykens right now anyways?)
being hit with that vesta def dish beam
slammed by tric mines
slowed by chron mines
grav pulsed again
did that guy just use jam sensors?

and the thing was..... i was still alive.

it was just 45 seconds of me staring at the screen and smiling while hitting distribute shields. and this happend twice, maybe 3 times last night.... in Solar Wind.....idunno, i was a little drunk.

so when it all comes down to it, they are all just little toys that really do not mean crap unless you put them in the hands of a team that can coordinate and make the best of them.

thats why everyone says: man, i was just cheesed to death, because eventually, there will be a hole in that cheese, and you will either get out, or die. leaving no actual GAMING SKILL being lent to the kill.

which is WAY UBER LAME!!!!!!!

how can this be what we want from our matches? all i want to do is have fun kill bad guys.
Where is the counterplay in what he describes? He had no options but to sit there spamming distribute shields until it was over. Can anyone else think of something he could have done? That is what is wrong with the game. And yes, there are some BOFF abilities and Weapons procs in that list, but the addition of the universal console abilities is what took the fun out of the situation. Even with a supportive team, you're gonna run out of cleanses eventually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
We actually really don't like A2B, but it's a bit of a "third rail" situation. When we have the right fix to it, someday, we'll probably possibly maybe make it.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 64
# 10
11-22-2012, 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonfl View Post
I like Horizon's list, so I'll use it as an example:



Where is the counterplay in what he describes? He had no options but to sit there spamming distribute shields until it was over. Can anyone else think of something he could have done? That is what is wrong with the game. And yes, there are some BOFF abilities and Weapons procs in that list, but the addition of the universal console abilities is what took the fun out of the situation. Even with a supportive team, you're gonna run out of cleanses eventually.
/unistall?

lol. good cross thread post to quote btw. this is a good example

amazing video. Thanks for the link devoras

Last edited by grindsmygears1; 11-22-2012 at 11:01 PM.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:55 AM.