Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 863
# 1 Ship Type Balance... Hangars.
11-17-2012, 08:15 PM
For quite a long time now, DPS has been the effective King of Games, at least in STO. May the STF Fairies have mercy on your soul if you're not a Tactical officer specced into a DP-Escort. This is partially due to the fact that, really, no other ship is quite as effective. Even done PROPERLY, tanks have the equivalent firepower of a pellet rifle, and science vessels aren't much better off. They don't have the damage to be really effective, and their niche rolls are far too niche (tanks can't even really tank, an Elite Cube will still eat you alive and spit out the redshirts, and science vessels with stopping power are only useful for half of each STF). Overall, if you don't mind exploding a little (Escorts can even avoid this much of the time; but, if they don't it means nothing, there's no really threatening death penalty in this game), you go for a DP-Escort.

I don't like that. Not that DP-Escorts aren't fun, but there needs to be VARIETY in play styles. Other ships and builds need an edge, a buff. The Vesta is the perfect example of what that buff is, and it's not hard to conceive... it has a hangar.

So, what I have is really quite simple: If a ship is not a small craft, an Escort, or a Bird-of-Prey, it gets a hangar. Science Vessels/Raptors get one, Cruisers get two, and existing carriers get double what they have (except the Armitage - It only gets one more slot. It always felt like a half-cruiser half-Escort, especially since it has a Lt. Cmdr. Engineering slot and 4 Tac/3 Eng for consoles). This means that ships with a decent turn rate and damage potential get a smaller damage/control boosts, and those ships with horrible turn rates and all the damage of throwing bologna at an M1-A1 Abrams get more support craft. Meanwhile, existing carriers can make up for their utter lack of damage with small armies of fighters (up to 24). This means ships without damage get damage, and those ships WITH damage don't dominate the field like a Snorlax sitting in the middle of a road. This would be explained very easily: Science Vessels have only ever had one shuttlebay, whereas cruisers have several.

And, for those of you that are reading this and screaming "The Vesta Hangar is supposed to be SPECIAL," the simple fact of the matter is, the Vesta is special already. It has the fastest Slipstream, DHCs that don't use weapon power, AoE heals, super-phasers, Torpedo Feedback Pulse, 10 Console Slots each, and a mother-loving PERFECT SHIELD. That little runt of a Sovereign is special enough without being the only Science Vessel with a hangar. This is the best way, short of nerfing DPS to hell and creation, of balancing ship types.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 471
# 2
11-17-2012, 08:19 PM
I only ever fly escorts and let me just say....

I support this idea.


Surprised you there didnt I?

Unfortunately there is nowhere on this forum for sensible suggestions on ways to improve this game. Case in point this thread will soon be relegated, as mine are, to the third page behind rage threads or people complaining about game mechanics they dont understand.

Sensible feedback = handful of responses.
Whine the borg one shot you = dozens of pages of responses.

Just the way people who use the forums are.

Last edited by seekerkorhil; 11-17-2012 at 08:22 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 471
# 3
11-17-2012, 08:20 PM
"Quick ensign, give me more power to the forward spam array."
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
They taste the same.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 262
# 4
11-17-2012, 08:46 PM
my kar'fi with 8 advanced frigates? that would be the epitomy of overpowered. that would be like stupid overpowered. sorry, but i think there needs to be a better balance pass than this.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 863
# 5
11-17-2012, 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsharpex View Post
my kar'fi with 8 advanced frigates? that would be the epitomy of overpowered. that would be like stupid overpowered. sorry, but i think there needs to be a better balance pass than this.
And DP-Escorts aren't? 3 DHCs, a pair of turrets and fore/aft torpedoes. Give it about 5 seconds with the right buffs, and the only question you'll be asking is "What enemies?" Tell me... How much firepower does your carrier have with NO advanced frigates? Not much, probably. The Kar'Fi has probably the worst turn rate in the game. You could pop Evasive Maneuvers and barely get to Cruiser turn rate. Yes, the Kar'Fi can have DHCs. But, what's the point if you can't USE them? Beam Spam isn't as powerful as you may have been led to believe. Scatter Volley and Torp Spread 3 on any escort and any enemies in front of you are either dust or about to be. Beam Spam... Congratulations, you have all of the aggro and none of the damage to take anything out. Hope you fixed up your escape pods, you're gonna need them. Even the best tanks die eventually. I would know, I've got a tank. He can suck up a CRAP ton of damage, but he still dies. So does my Chimera.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerkorhil View Post
*snipped for brevity*
Surprised you there didnt I?
*Good point, but snipped for brevity*
Believe it or not, no. Very little surprises me these days. Good to have the support, though. Who knows? If this DOES pass, you might actually end up flying a different ship once in a while.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)

Last edited by icegavel; 11-17-2012 at 09:17 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 83
# 6
11-17-2012, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by icegavel View Post
And DP-Escorts aren't? 3 DHCs, a pair of turrets and fore/aft torpedoes. Give it about 5 seconds with the right buffs, and the only question you'll be asking is "What enemies?" Tell me... How much firepower does your carrier have with NO advanced frigates? Not much, probably. The Kar'Fi has probably the worst turn rate in the game. You could pop Evasive Maneuvers and barely get to Cruiser turn rate. Yes, the Kar'Fi can have DHCs. But, what's the point if you can't USE them? Beam Spam isn't as powerful as you may have been led to believe. Scatter Volley and Torp Spread 3 on any escort and any enemies in front of you are either dust or about to be. Beam Spam... Congratulations, you have all of the aggro and none of the damage to take anything out. Hope you fixed up your escape pods, you're gonna need them. Even the best tanks die eventually. I would know, I've got a tank. He can suck up a CRAP ton of damage, but he still dies. So does my Chimera.



Believe it or not, no. Very little surprises me these days. Good to have the support, though. Who knows? If this DOES pass, you might actually end up flying a different ship once in a while.
Now Now I think he has a point. Escorts can do their cycle and go "What enemies?" but Carriers and the like have a bit more survivability than Escorts do.

That said I do like the expanded hanger slots.

Though I would say Existing Carriers expand to one more slot(for a total of 3 not 4). All else gets a hanger that can equip shuttles or To'Duj fighters(Klingons.) I cant see science or cruisers on the fed side carrying fighters as much as that would make sense gameplay wise. Shuttles are already pretty strong in their own right.

The extra Carrier slot would also only be able to equip small craft(Shuttles/Fighters). My B'rel and B'rolth already chew up enemies adding 4 more to that would just make it a virtually unstoppable juggernaut.

How to balance that with the Atrox's 2(3 with the proposed change) bays I would know. You already habve 12 stalkers. Adding another bay you'll have 18 fighters. They dont do much damage but its a death by a thousand cuts(that plus the thoron does about 2-3k at least thats what I see on teh Nanite generators)

And just as an aside not so serious suggestion:

Do you think FEDs should get a frigate equivalent to launch? Klinks get BoPs and Karfi Frigates. Should Feds get something like that? What would even be? Whats the equivalent?

A defiant?(Lol say hello to 4 defiants coming at you.)

Maybe just Sabers.

I dunno.

Last edited by somrik; 11-17-2012 at 10:28 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,486
# 7
11-17-2012, 10:43 PM
While I do believe that cruisers need some help, I don't think this is the best response. It would make actual carriers quite a bit less unique in their mechanics and make the game play more like Homeworld than Star Trek, if every cruiser was launching fighters and every carrier could unload 24 (!) of them.

My preferred solutions revolve around some combination of:
* Increase maneuverability of all cruisers into the 8-10 deg/s range. This enables them to maneuver more proficiently, which means better use of more powerful weapons with smaller arcs.
* Give cruisers (and ONLY cruisers) an inherent 50% immunity to power drains, including from firing weapons. This would allow their beam arrays to function at a higher level of performance than would be available on other ships, and make these insanely power-hungry weapons more practical.
* Give cruisers a built in ability, somewhat similar to Sensor Analysis, but instead of only generating bonus damage it also gives bonus defense and bonus threat generation: the longer a cruiser fights a given target, the more damage they do, the less they take, and the more focused the enemy will be on them to the exclusion of other team mates.
* Modify Beam Overload to be a rapid-fire single-target DPS boost (like Rapid Fire) instead of a low-efficiency/high-spike modifier that provides no additional damage. Further incentivizing beams, being that beams currently suffer from an extremely specialized and 'balanced' set of tactical abilities while cannon abilities are easy to apply and entirely bonus without the drawbacks.
* Increase shield and hull values for cruisers significantly. The 10% stronger shield and hull that they get is laughable considering escorts evade more than 10% of incoming fire thanks to their high movement speed.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,758
# 8
11-17-2012, 10:57 PM
I'n pve

Cruisers and science need a Dps buff badly

I think a radiation proc that really worked could
Do this
A device that would increase radiation damage
By 50% of rated beam array damage

Pvp would not be affected , they have enough balance
Issues without adding more

Adjust the % of radiatition damage until the 3 classes are
More balanced I'n Dps

Something like this could work
Jellico....Engineer.....Stargazer KDF Tac
Saphire.. Science.....Ko'el Rom Kdf Tac
Leva........Tactical.....Mailu KDF Sci

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 262
# 9
11-17-2012, 11:00 PM
[quote=icegavel;6658191]And DP-Escorts aren't? 3 DHCs, a pair of turrets and fore/aft torpedoes. Give it about 5 seconds with the right buffs, and the only question you'll be asking is "What enemies?" Tell me... How much firepower does your carrier have with NO advanced frigates? Not much, probably. The Kar'Fi has probably the worst turn rate in the game. You could pop Evasive Maneuvers and barely get to Cruiser turn rate. Yes, the Kar'Fi can have DHCs. But, what's the point if you can't USE them? Beam Spam isn't as powerful as you may have been led to believe. Scatter Volley and Torp Spread 3 on any escort and any enemies in front of you are either dust or about to be. Beam Spam... Congratulations, you have all of the aggro and none of the damage to take anything out. Hope you fixed up your escape pods, you're gonna need them. Even the best tanks die eventually. I would know, I've got a tank. He can suck up a CRAP ton of damage, but he still dies. So does my Chimera.

with respect, my kar'fi does it's fair share of damage on its own. without the adv frigates, it can do 5-6k. with the frigates, it does 10-11k. i don't have the exact numbers. i must state that my kar'fi is fully geared and is a specialty build. so i am an outlier. much like the escort that can bang out 11k dps on his own, or the dps tank cruiser.

any idiot can step into an escort and bang out 6-7k dps. learning to fly the other craft takes time and skill. you won't be doing amazing burst damage, but you'll be playing a role that needs to be played. a good pvp team does not merely consist of all tac/escorts. they have a variety. so before you go and try to cop out the easy way, hoping these little fighters and whatnot do your work for you, why not re-assess your build to see if you can juice it up further? if you want hanger slots, fly a carrier.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,156
# 10
11-18-2012, 03:29 AM
I'm with momaw on this one add to this the 6% beam damage buff suggested somewhere else and one ship class is sorted.

Revert science powers back to their former glory and make ANY sci power's damage exotic and tacs can't make them OP and that's the other ship class sorted.

I would however like to see all the EPtX powers perform as per EPtS though (buff lasts 30 seconds, as oppose to the 5 they do now)
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