Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,000
Cruisers/tanks are suffering, they take all the beating, but reap none of the rewards. DEM is suppose to be the engineer go to ability to cause mayhem, but alas it is underwhelming and if it becomes too powerful, tacs will use it and become even more abusive. So how about a compromise, DEM only effects Beam based weapons and has an increased shield penetration (right where it hurts the tactical players). Cryptic took a serious look at revising mines, and they are great now, but the only ships getting benefits from it are the ones that can place them and run, something cruisers can't, but the same attention to some base offensive skills for engineers could yield some nice results for buffing Engineer abilities to either counter or keep up with Tactical officers. Shield penetration is the big one, hence Wide Arc Trasphasic Torps and a buffed DEM.

Tactical Team and Target Subsystem Weapons, combined with new and buffed DEM and Transphasic torps could really improve effectiveness of Cruisers.
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor

LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 820
# 2
11-26-2012, 11:45 PM
You are forgetting a simple fact, those cruisers and battle cruisers that use cannons. Restricting DEM to beams alone would not be a good move. It is pretty fine as it is.

-= ISE: 12:19 -=- CSE 12:41 -=- KASE 11:59 -=- HSe 8:06 total =-
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[7:07] [Combat (Self)] Your Dual Disruptor Banks - Overload II deals 123086 (41096) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 715
# 3
11-27-2012, 12:36 PM
Shouldn't this be placed under BOFF Powers?
Constant exposure to the same opinions leads to continual reinforcement of ideas until eventually, any challenge, no matter what form it takes, is going to be met with a disproportionate sense of outrage. Room for reasoned discussion can no longer occur.

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,489
# 4
11-27-2012, 01:59 PM
Really the basic problem with DEM is that it doesn't make any sense. As *described*, the ability should be making some fraction of our damage penetrate shields. But it doesn't. It adds a bonus damage rider that penetrates shields and our basic damage still impacts the shields as normal.

As a shield penetrating attack DEM is utterly pathetic, since standard enemies will have their shields battered down in moments. Anything that has shields strong enough that we might actually consider shield-penetrating attacks a worthwhile tactic, also has millions of hitpoints. The +48 damage per hit, or whatever it is, is completely irrelevant.

As a damage boosting attack DEM is utterly pathetic, since the bonus damage is a flat amount rather than a multiplier and that flat amount seems to be based on NPC-style unboosted/unconsoled damage figures. The cooldown pattern on the ability is ridiculous next to the Cannon tactical abilities, and further, there's now doffs available that can make a single copy of a Cannon ability almost as effectively as having two copies.

Any effort to make this ability worthwhile by giving it a meaningful degree of shield penetration, for a majority of players, will run face-first into bitter opposition from the minority of PVP players. That shouldn't be a factor, but it is, so we have to rule out making DEM have meaningful shield penetration. Which means scrapping the description of it and reformulating from scratch.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,000
# 5
11-27-2012, 02:20 PM
DEM in theory is exactly what cruisers need against escorts, in practice it sucks. A tank in any game is someone that can deal moderate damage to keep the attention of the bad guys and of course take massive damage. I can take plenty of damage, but I find even with 6 out of 9 in Threat I still loose aggro if I don't use 2 Antiproton Mags and dump power into weapons leaving Aux short (not to mention I get yelled at by everyone for being ineffective in PvE). There is no reward for being a tank, the only effective weapons, like Transphasic Cluster Torpedoes get shot down when I launch them, Attack Pattern Delta doesn't buff enough for incoming damage and Target Subsystem Shields is ineffective cause I can't get my big guns (torpedoes) facing while the shields are down.

Science got a huge buff by removing shared CDs, my Vesta is starting to out DPS some of my more moderate tactical builds. Engineers are now the lowest of the low, the amount of time I hear folks ragging on Engineers in space STF is uncalled for, Star Trek is a show about engineers solving problems (Scotty, Wes, Geordi, O'Brian and Sisko) and the guys in the big chair getting all the glory.
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor

LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 324
# 6
11-27-2012, 03:35 PM
The problem with shield-piercing attacks in general (this applies to pretty much any game that has a shield system and shield-piercing abilities) is that the pierce/non-pierce ratio needs to be higher than the shield/hull ratio to truly be effective, otherwise you're going to end up breaking your opponent's shields before his hull and the effort expended in piercing the targets shields is wasted, and in a game where the hull-killing kinetic damage needs to not hit shields, it ends up being even worse. This is complicated by the fact that shields can be healed and that there are multiple facings, but the base premise stands.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 546
# 7
11-27-2012, 03:39 PM
There is a new fed doff, a purple systems engineer called Marion that adds 8 seconds of power drain resistance to the ship each time DEM is used. Combined with beam powers like FAW and BO it makes for some interesting burst damage and overall DPS increase without sacrificing any tankiness.

As for tanking, I don't find usually any problem getting aggro and holding it, even at Elite STFs. Donatra, TAC cubes, the freaking gateway and its cheating one hit kill torpedoes.

but I find even with 6 out of 9 in Threat I still loose aggro if I don't use 2 Antiproton Mags and dump power into weapons leaving Aux short (not to mention I get yelled at by everyone for being ineffective in PvE)
You should run with max power to weapons and full tac consoles always. As you noted, you can't hold aggro if you don't do enough damage. Cruisers CAN do enough damage to hold aggro. Use engineer skills and powers to bump the other stats. I usually run at 120/90/50/50 before any buffs. EPTS3, EPTW1, Aux2Bat1 with technicians and other power level boosting abilities are the bread and butter of a cruiser.
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Last edited by overlapo; 11-27-2012 at 04:09 PM.

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