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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 11
11-28-2012, 04:16 PM
You are substituting the literal meaning of that passage with your own cultural biases. What it says is that her father was never put in that position. Cultures that practice infanticide don't see it as a matter of discretion any more than we see neonatal care as a matter of discretion.

It's established that the Romulans have no concept of preventative care and therefore their medical technology as such is extremely limited, and the Romulan body has evolved to facilitate this way of life.

Plebian and aristocratic are not personal qualities one "grows out of". You are projecting an attitude of social mobility that class cultures don't share.

If you are born a pleb, you are a pleb for life, and that is not seen as strange or unjust by class cultures. If you graduate from a military academy, you are still a pleb. If you don't, you are still a pleb. If you are a hero to your people, you are still a pleb. If you aren't, you are still a pleb.

The highest honor for a pleb and the closest he can come to transcending his condition is service to his people. This is culturally universal across all such societies.

Naturally the unfairness inherent in such an arrangement makes for people who are ambitious by personal nature to be very insecure and uneasy about their background. Then again, if you asked them, they would say that people who live in meritocratic cultures are neurotic megalomaniacs.

Every culture is necessarily imperfect and always a work in progress. This becomes all the more apparent when the tides of change challenge a culture, or new variables enter the picture. Every culture must eventually come up against its limitations and often morphs into its cosmic antithesis. (Hence Charvanek, something that would have been understood by the classically-educated contemporary audience).

Last edited by aestu; 11-28-2012 at 04:22 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,476
# 12
11-28-2012, 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
You are substituting the literal meaning of that passage with your own cultural biases.
Which is what any reader will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
It's established that the Romulans have no concept of preventative care and therefore their medical technology as such is extremely limited, and the Romulan body has evolved to facilitate this way of life.
Has it? If you had said that about Klingon society, I would certainly agree with you, but given the creation (and juvenile treatment) of Shinzon, I would have said that Romulan medical technology was on a par with that of the Federation...
Career Officer
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# 13
11-28-2012, 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
Which is what any reader will do.
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract."
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,476
# 14
11-28-2012, 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract."
Congratulations, you can copy/paste other people's philosophical musings... It's clear that you are not prepared to acknowledge or receive critique of your work which challenges your intellectually elitist views. Good day.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 15
11-28-2012, 07:26 PM
Elitist? I'm not sure what that means in this context.

I internalized your criticism and I thank you for taking the time to write it. I simply feel that the usefulness of said critique is somewhat limited by the extent to which you seem to read your own demons into the story.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,100
# 16
11-28-2012, 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
Congratulations, you can copy/paste other people's philosophical musings... It's clear that you are not prepared to acknowledge or receive critique of your work which challenges your intellectually elitist views. Good day.
aestu offered a clear and well thought out rebuttal, yours... is Star Trek: Nemesis. Shame on you. Also, Marcus, this is kind of a minor plot point and I think you're being a bit nitpicky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
- Supine is not an acceptable name for a Vulcan female (especially when a female Romulan has a more traditionally female Vulcan name and they are in close interraction... It would be like calling an English boy Hamish, and having his best friend be a Scottish boy called Rupert)
I agree, But I had this Doff at one point as well. I understand where aestu was coming from on this one. It gets a pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
And her request to be in undergarments struck me as a tad fetishistic (When it was just her own quarters, fine, but once she acquired a roommate, logic would support the cultural obligation to be properly clothed in the presence of others)
You've never had a roommate have you?


That being said Aetsu, "You read the story wrong" is not a good defense. The Romulan could have been born on a cargo ship, or a far out colony, or any other kind of ill medically equipped place.

Enough of that. Let's talk about the good stuff shall we?

Fantastic job. This is the first time I have been entertained by a fanfiction in, well, ever. I don't believe I have ever read a fanfiction entertaining enough to warrant finishing, let alone enjoying. Good job. The characters and their interactions were believable and entertaining, the two plot lines running concurrently is something very reminiscent of Star Trek, and it was realized well enough that I had a mini Star Trek episode playing in my head.

The character descriptions were short enough to be too the point, but contained enough info to be interesting, informative, and left me wanting to know more. I would very much like to see these characters again.

Also, you wrote a telepathic character well. I don't think I have ever seen a well written telepathic character. (Troi had her moments in later seasons, but even that was iffy)

As for improvements, I would suggest making it clearer in the beginning that the Caitian dude is actually a Caitian. It was quite awhile before I realized what he actually was. Also, while both done very well, the two stories could have been meshed together a bit better. (Say, having the Vedeks arriving at the same time as the Romulan, having them visit the lounge during a couple of the galley sequences, stuff like that.)

Other than that I really can't think of any problems with it. Thank you for that. It was a good read.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 17
11-28-2012, 08:49 PM
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
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# 18
11-29-2012, 04:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
Elitist? I'm not sure what that means in this context.

I internalized your criticism and I thank you for taking the time to write it. I simply feel that the usefulness of said critique is somewhat limited by the extent to which you seem to read your own demons into the story.
Don't be disingenuous, it does not befit someone of your intellect. You are well aware of what Intellectually Elitist means in any context. In the past 24 hours, I have observed the comments you have made (to myself and others) to be incredibly elitist and intellectually snobby ie comment that Worf's subtleties are too subtle for most fans to appreciate, your own responses to my critiques which ignored anything which you did not want to hear from a reader, and finally descended into, albeit educated, insults. You were clearly happy to receive critique which simply praised you, but are unwilling to accept that readers bring different perspectives than your own, and as much as you criticize others for bullying, you resort to the exact same behavior, by trying to intellectually intimidate. It would be illogical to continue this dialogue further.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,476
# 19
11-29-2012, 04:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
aestu offered a clear and well thought out rebuttal, yours... is Star Trek: Nemesis. Shame on you.
A clear and well thought out rebuttal would take into account the established facts of Romulan women... I won't fall into the trap of asking "What's wrong with Nemesis?" ( ) but I will point out that it, and the performances within it, were canon. Donatra was by no means 'a cold fish', nor was the TOS female Romulan Commander I mentioned (Who was not in Nemesis And equally, although I forget the character name, there was the female Romulan with whom Doctor Bashir was conversing on Romulus. There was definite flirtation in her manner, and she, like Donatra, was clearly neither a cold fish nor aloof. In that regard, T'Rei's supposedly 'Romulan aloofness', read more as upper-class snobbery, and in the UK, the term 'pleb' is only taken as a negative description of a working-class individual, regardless of its historical meaning and usage...

Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
Also, Marcus, this is kind of a minor plot point and I think you're being a bit nitpicky.
The majority of the piece was excellent, and there were few elements which could have benefited by revision, so by that definition, yes, I was being nitpicky, but I was not doing so for the sake of being critical. With regards the point about T'Rei's father, I felt that made a nice point about a child too selfish to understand a parents' motivations, but instead, aestu simply spouted on about social mobility as if we were in a sociology class, and then tried to downplay Romulan medical science to support an implausibly undetected medical condition. If 20th Century medicine can detect an aortic defect in a baby, there is no plausible reason that 24th Century physicians could not do so. (Unless T'Rei was literally born in a barn with no medical assistance, and continued to live in said barn till trying to attend the military academy...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
I agree, But I had this Doff at one point as well. I understand where aestu was coming from on this one. It gets a pass.
What is a Doff? How can something which does not fit the convention 'get a pass'? As aestu considered the piece finished, it did not necessarily require revision, but, it was a point which would have been worth bearing in mind for future pieces. Just to hammer home that point: Supine is not a suitable name for a Vulcan female, as illustrated by the Hamish and Rupert example (which was ignored entirely by aestu)

Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
You've never had a roommate have you?
I have not. I don't think that being married is quite the same relationship
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 20
11-29-2012, 05:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
I have not. I don't think that being married is quite the same relationship
Actually, it is. To live with someone, you need to have a sizeable comfort zone; it is not practical for that which is usually private to be so. That is well-known to anyone who has lived that way, whether as a roommate or spouse.

Quote:
Donatra was by no means 'a cold fish', nor was the TOS female Romulan Commander I mentioned (Who was not in Nemesis And equally, although I forget the character name, there was the female Romulan with whom Doctor Bashir was conversing on Romulus. There was definite flirtation in her manner, and she, like Donatra, was clearly neither a cold fish nor aloof.
I think you have issues with oversexualizing women.

Just because a woman is friendly does not mean she is sexually interested in you, and just because a woman is cool and professional does not mean she is sexually repressed. Absolutely nothing between Bashir and Cretak suggested the two were interested in each other.

Quote:
Don't be disingenuous, it does not befit someone of your intellect. You are well aware of what Intellectually Elitist means in any context. In the past 24 hours, I have observed the comments you have made (to myself and others) to be incredibly elitist and intellectually snobby ie comment that Worf's subtleties are too subtle for most fans to appreciate, your own responses to my critiques which ignored anything which you did not want to hear from a reader, and finally descended into, albeit educated, insults. You were clearly happy to receive critique which simply praised you, but are unwilling to accept that readers bring different perspectives than your own, and as much as you criticize others for bullying, you resort to the exact same behavior, by trying to intellectually intimidate. It would be illogical to continue this dialogue further.
I think that insecurity is driving you to a lot of unwarranted conclusions.

Quote:
In that regard, T'Rei's supposedly 'Romulan aloofness', read more as upper-class snobbery, and in the UK, the term 'pleb' is only taken as a negative description of a working-class individual, regardless of its historical meaning and usage...
Romulans see themselves as superior to other species. If aristocrats see themselves as the elite of a national community, Romulans see themselves as the elite of the galactic community, and they manifest their smugness in the same way.

The word "pleb" is Latin. In Roman society, a pleb was a Roman citizen who was not an aristocrat. Economically, this could mean anything from a proletarian (someone with no property) to a wealthy "new man" (upper-middle class). The label was social, not economic, although of course the aristocrats were typically (but not always) much better off than any pleb. The term was not derogatory as the Romans were a conservative people and took class society as a given.

Romulan society is explicitly modeled after Roman society. The class interaction between Keras, Decius and the Centurion in TOS: "Balance of Terror" is a familiar theme from Roman history. In TNG: "Unification, Part II", Senator Pardek's relative is a "legal intercessor". A "legal intercessor" was a Roman official, also called a tribune of the plebs, with no equivalent in Western society. This office was typically assumed by ambitious, populist politicians who were feared by the Roman aristocrats (and often bought out), which is a deliberate parallel underscoring the entire plot.

The term filtered into British English because England has traditionally used classical education, and British aristocrats have gone out of their way to warp Roman concepts and figures into contrived parallels with their own culture (often turning reality on its head and spinning the evils of the Roman Empire into positive reflections on the evils of British society).

Despite the reputation of Americans as anti-intellectual, at least somewhat well-deserved, American classical scholarship is a good deal more objective in its treatment of Roman society.

Quote:
(Unless T'Rei was literally born in a barn with no medical assistance, and continued to live in said barn till trying to attend the military academy...)
Who knows? Life on 24th century Romulus certainly isn't a socialist paradise like life on 24th century Earth.

Last edited by aestu; 11-29-2012 at 06:05 AM.
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