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Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 242
I'm so tired of getting mail saying I'm a P2W troll. So I just to throw this out there for the newer PVPers. The older ones know the difference. I fly a well's yes a lock box ship but remove all the cheep stuff. I do not fly a wells with the bubble and TCD mines with DPB and tractor. This is a big difference. I fly a fleet defiant. I do not fly a fleet defient with all rapid fire and 3 sub nuke doffs and AMS. I have a kling in a BoP. I do not have a BoP with all Polaron, energy siphon, ace, and prismonic leach. There is a difference between the 2 if someone is a better player then please don't start spamming them in game. If you don't like something or a wondering how he did that ask. That's all you need to do. Nothing more nothing less. The pvp community is not all players that use cheap tactics that kill whole teams. I've never seen Sad Panda, TSI(lately), Critz, or TGH spam tractor pets, AMS/SS, run whole teams of drain builds, or run 5 man alpha strikes on the same target. That is the pvp community. (Srry if I forgot you) honestly I want some input from other PVPers.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 2
11-22-2012, 11:27 AM
I don't think there really exists any "Pay2Win" line in the sand (sorry but we're both just as guilty, I fly lockbox and fleet ships too).

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 945
# 3
11-22-2012, 11:33 AM
" run 5 man alpha strikes on the same target"

If you have 5 tacs (probably not the best idea ever) and can coordinate it, that seems like a good strategy to me. Focus firing is part of any good team tactic, and if you can coordinate alpha strikes on that focused target, all the better.
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@DevolvedOne
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 242
# 4
11-22-2012, 11:44 AM
The 5 man alpha strike was in a pvp I recorded of my friend he have him and 3 friends do the alpha strikes on the same facing all with a differ weapon type and all had a different extra like one had the tractor one had an EngSiph one was using team battery's game lasted 4.5 min and ended 15/0 yeah not a fan of that type of game play lol great conter to it is RSP, PH, aux shd battary and FBP3. Lol it makes 4 dead BoP's
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,441
# 5
11-22-2012, 05:23 PM
So I read the title.
So I read the post.
I read the title again.
I read the post again.

I'm having difficulty putting the two together - even the title itself, doesn't really jibe.

There's a difference between Pay2Win and not Pay2Win.
There's a difference between Play2Win and not Play2Win.

Pay2Win is a form of Play2Win... so it's not really a case of it being different. There's Play2Win without Pay2Win, though.

So I could see a post discussing the differences between Pay2Win Play2Win and not Pay2Win Play2Win...

...but in the end, that would really just be the standard P2W discussion.

I could also see a discussion wishing that players would not claim somebody was using Pay2Win when in the end it was simply a case that they were Play2Win and simply had a clue as to what they were doing... but given the Pay2Win mentioned, it's obviously not that discussion.

So yeah, I read the title.
So yeah, I read the post.

I don't get what you're trying to say... with what Shim said, is it a case of trying to draw a line of what is acceptable P2W and what is not? To the purists, anything bought for real money that gives an advantage (whether you were the person that paid the cash or some other currency, it did not enter the game without a cash transaction) is going to be P2W. Hell, using the EPM from the Oberth is P2W (but I like my wee EPM).

Are there things far worse? Definitely. But it is what it is... a line crossed.

All in all, though - I think the discussion is rather moot in STO. STO's not P2W.

Say what?

Cash transactions are such a part of STO at the core now - it's not a case of paying to win, paying for an advantage, or anything like that... it's a case that the paid stuff is the baseline. You can see it in the responses from devs questioning how folks are calling things OP. They're not OP. That's the new baseline.

STO isn't P2W... it's a new form of P2P... it's not a sub model, but you've got to pay to play.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 95
# 6
11-22-2012, 05:51 PM
I have 9 toons one of them is a tric mine ams grav pulse chimera with dual aux to bat not a great build but really fun to fly. You can imagine the rage i get
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 7
11-22-2012, 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Cash transactions are such a part of STO at the core now - it's not a case of paying to win, paying for an advantage, or anything like that... it's a case that the paid stuff is the baseline. You can see it in the responses from devs questioning how folks are calling things OP. They're not OP. That's the new baseline.

STO isn't P2W... it's a new form of P2P... it's not a sub model, but you've got to pay to play.
If this is the case, is it then fair game to use every thinkable console, EVERY single one i mind you, and simply accept what STO has become? Or is there some self imposed rule or unwritten rule among folks, under the pretense of game morailty which prevents its use?
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 64
# 8
11-22-2012, 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
If this is the case, is it then fair game to use every thinkable console, EVERY single one i mind you, and simply accept what STO has become? Or is there some self imposed rule or unwritten rule among folks, under the pretense of game morailty which prevents its use?
These agreements have been tried multiple times, and they always crash and burn eventually. In a perfect world we could police ourselves and not use anything paid for. We'll never agree with where to draw the line. In the past, it was abilities that were broken that the the majority of the community agreed not to use. People would rage when they saw a team using these abilities due to them breaking this "agreement". In the end, teams would start using them to get back or stay "even" with the other team using them. They would then run into a different team and use the abilities and push this next team closer to using them as well to keep up.

Today however, it not abilities but instead paid for items. One person says ban it all, ships and consoles. The next person says this console power is fine, but this one isn't. The next person says no consoles, but ships are ok. Now enters doffs into the conversation. Snb doffs aren't fair cries one person at the other team while probably not realizing his teammate is running them too. The dynamic of what to include and what not to include is way to complex short of no c-store/lobi, or allow it all. May as well just allow it all since you'll never get everyone to agree to not run their cheese giving them a size able advantage. I hate p2w crap as much as the next guy, but cryptic will never give us a p2w free pvp mode which is the only way we'll see fun matches without the cheese fest they have made their product into
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,441
# 9
11-22-2012, 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grindsmygears1 View Post
I hate p2w crap as much as the next guy, but cryptic will never give us a p2w free pvp mode which is the only way we'll see fun matches without the cheese fest they have made their product into
They've talked about how well they did with S6 - allowing them to increase staff, etc, etc.
They've talked about how well S7 looks to do - allowing them to keep that staff, etc, etc.

Yeah, it's clear the direction that the game is going to continue to go - the direction which is making STO "successful" - and thus what that means for PvP...

People are more than happy to spend oodles and oodles of money. It's working for Cryptic/PWE in this case - it's working for a large percentage of the playerbase - it's just not working for PvP...

...but it's obvious where that stands.

Lol, maybe if they could figure a way to charge people for P2Wfree matches... they might look at that, eh?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 10
11-22-2012, 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grindsmygears1 View Post
These agreements have been tried multiple times, and they always crash and burn eventually. In a perfect world we could police ourselves and not use anything paid for. We'll never agree with where to draw the line. In the past, it was abilities that were broken that the the majority of the community agreed not to use. People would rage when they saw a team using these abilities due to them breaking this "agreement". In the end, teams would start using them to get back or stay "even" with the other team using them. They would then run into a different team and use the abilities and push this next team closer to using them as well to keep up.

Oki. If so, how would the pvp community here feel and react if every single pvp fleet, included mine, started to use every single so-called cheese console and ship and godness knows what, without scruples, under the pretense of whats been discussed so far in this thread?

Because as far as i can understand nothing seems to be p2w anymore and all is fair game, or what?
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
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