Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 1 Firepower Imbalance
10-25-2012, 08:54 AM
Have you noticed how torpedos have become next to useless because of Borg Kits, and Tac Team? Its already insult to canon that the torpedos don't do much to shields while being shown otherwise in the shows and movies, but its also a contradiction of what kind of DPS they give it when it fires from NPC's. Topedo spread coming out of an NPC battleship or Dreadnought rips through your shields and half your hull, yet they don't do any shield penetration for players. The only type ships can now enjoy the use torpedos are escorts/ destroyers because they are armed with cannons that rip through shield within second, then they could drop their volley of torpedos on to the bare hull of their target. Ships that has to use beams can't wear down shields nearly as fast and don't work at all against Tac Team and Borg kits, so cruisers can't enjoy the use of the torpedos , at all. How is that supposed to be fair and balance, Mr. Dev?

Its funny how the ships that was designed in canon to fire a single burst topedo spread is only allowed to fire the least amount of torpedos per spread, while escort ships that don't fire spread volleys in the shows, are allowed to fire the most amount of torpedos per spread. There is not one show or movie showing the BOPs firing more than one torpedo at a time. In DS9, the Defiant never fired more than two torpedos at a time, and can only fire more than two in a consecutive order. Most of the ships in canon only fire consecutive order of torpedos, except for the Galaxy types. Even the Sovereign couldn't fire a one burst spread of torpedos or otherwise it would of easily found the Scimitar, possibly even damaging it. If you read the manual or Memory Alpha, you will see that the Sovereign Enterprise has 10 torpedo bays(3 fore, 6 aft, and 1 quantum fore launcher), the ship was not designed to fire at once burst spread but consecutively.

This is just to show the great lengths, that the Devs went to give all the firepower to one class of ships to enjoy. People would say, "Cruisers are for tanking," but you don't get rewards or credit for "tanking." You don't get drops for taking hits, instead you get drops for killing stuff or dealing damage. You don't get the top end game drop for 1st place for taking the most hits, but for getting the most kills. There needs to be a balance to give other classes of ships to be top killing machines so their players can enjoy that same rewards escort players get. Now with the new BOFF abilities that allow you to subnuke players take away people's tanking abilities. This is being used in most PVP teams so it makes the tank player, an easy target with no teeth. There is no real atiquate defense against this because Science Team may undo the subnuke timers but it doesn't return the buffs that were turned off, thus making you still vulnerable to attack.

Last edited by alexindcobra; 10-25-2012 at 09:01 AM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 373
# 2
10-25-2012, 09:14 AM
While I understand your plight and sympathise with you for it you are barking up the wrong tree... Cryptic/PWE AND the playerbase has spoken and the common theme here is unless you arte in an escort of some form you are a pointless ship taking up space that could be filled by an escort..... been that way since the beginning I am afraid....

you wanna give the cruisers back thier bite give them torp launchers that fire in 360 degree arcs..... regardless of the torpedo type... if its a torp that gets mounted on a cruiser it gets a 360 degree firing arc period... but only for the Fed Cruisers... since no one plays KDF anymore since all the good KDF toys are available to feds already anyway....
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 472
# 3 Not just firepower
10-25-2012, 09:16 AM
The problem isn't just the weapons. The entire system needs major surgery in order to balance it. As long as weapon mod powers are TAC powers the other ships will never catch up. As for tanking, any ship can tank. The escorts dodge/shield tank, the sci ships shield tank and the cruisers shield and hull tank.

Personally I would replace those TAC weapon mod. powers with other emphasizing mobility and tactics, use the beam/cannon/torpedo/mine powers in an additional system (targeting computer, first officer or whatever) that's independent of the type of ship, then make each class of ship favor a type of weapon, dual cannons for escorts, beam arrays for cruisers and torpedo weapons for science ships, and balance it out so that any type of ship of the same tier with similar gear would do and survive the same amount of damage, just in a different way as I described above.

Last edited by overlapo; 10-25-2012 at 09:21 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 437
# 4
10-25-2012, 09:48 AM
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 5
10-25-2012, 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlapo View Post
The problem isn't just the weapons. The entire system needs major surgery in order to balance it. As long as weapon mod powers are TAC powers the other ships will never catch up. As for tanking, any ship can tank. The escorts dodge/shield tank, the sci ships shield tank and the cruisers shield and hull tank.

Personally I would replace those TAC weapon mod. powers with other emphasizing mobility and tactics, use the beam/cannon/torpedo/mine powers in an additional system (targeting computer, first officer or whatever) that's independent of the type of ship, then make each class of ship favor a type of weapon, dual cannons for escorts, beam arrays for cruisers and torpedo weapons for science ships, and balance it out so that any type of ship of the same tier with similar gear would do and survive the same amount of damage, just in a different way as I described above.
I agree whole heartedly. I just made this thread about weapons, because its a step to recognize the imbalance and what can be fixed. Its your weapons that will gain you rewards for kills in PVP and PVE. You can make the case about mobilty, HP and resistance, shields, and BOFF layout.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 6
10-25-2012, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andoriansrus View Post
While I understand your plight and sympathise with you for it you are barking up the wrong tree... Cryptic/PWE AND the playerbase has spoken and the common theme here is unless you arte in an escort of some form you are a pointless ship taking up space that could be filled by an escort..... been that way since the beginning I am afraid....

you wanna give the cruisers back thier bite give them torp launchers that fire in 360 degree arcs..... regardless of the torpedo type... if its a torp that gets mounted on a cruiser it gets a 360 degree firing arc period... but only for the Fed Cruisers... since no one plays KDF anymore since all the good KDF toys are available to feds already anyway....
I wouldn't ask for 360 degree arcs for torpedos because it wouldn't make sense. There is no such torpedo weapon in Star Trek canon. Just give the torpedos more teeth and they are fine where they are. The most attacked part of a cruiser from an escort is it's rear, so puting powerful torpedos in that area would discourage players from hanging back there too long. It's like when you fight the NPC Dreadnoughts, you avoid hanging around its front and rear arcs because it's torpedo spreads will deal you a death blow or near death blow.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 41
# 7
10-25-2012, 12:49 PM
I can agree on 1 point.. any event that calculates a drop/reward for doing the most damage should be changed to include a engineers 'survivability rating' or something like that, which calculated adds to whatever the lower damage a cruiser does and puts in on par with escorts in score values.

I can also agree to a certain extent about the ST Shows not showing something like what Spread III looks like, however nor do we see every torpedo spread strike the captains have ordered while in battle, so it is entirely possible we never were shown it, and to a certain extent too it might not have had that effect to help save on the vfx costs of episodes.

I'll have to disagree with you on torps doing nothing to shields.. they certainly can and cruisers still get spread II or high yield II whichever of your choosing. Obviously builds are quite different across the board so torpedo damage varies in mileage, and if your finding torps being too restrictive for you, I'd suggest the rapid-reload transphasic torps, then it matters even less if shields are up or not. Grab a tractor too if you need something to hold your target long enough to squeeze the launcher in the arc, then your set.

My only 1 annoyance I get with torps is when that 30-45K tricobolt torpedo hits a shield sliver and is reduced to like 2K, but I shrug it off and just keep on the pressure.
---
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Last edited by sfhq; 10-25-2012 at 12:54 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 8
10-25-2012, 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Just give the torpedos more teeth and they are fine where they are.
And what happens with escorts equip these stronger torp launchers?
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 9
10-25-2012, 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
And what happens with escorts equip these stronger torp launchers?
They can reverse the amount of torpedos per spread for the escort, so instead of the cruisers having the least amounts of torpedos per volley, the escorts should get the least, since they can arm cannons.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 10
10-25-2012, 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhq View Post
I can agree on 1 point.. any event that calculates a drop/reward for doing the most damage should be changed to include a engineers 'survivability rating' or something like that, which calculated adds to whatever the lower damage a cruiser does and puts in on par with escorts in score values.

I can also agree to a certain extent about the ST Shows not showing something like what Spread III looks like, however nor do we see every torpedo spread strike the captains have ordered while in battle, so it is entirely possible we never were shown it, and to a certain extent too it might not have had that effect to help save on the vfx costs of episodes.

I'll have to disagree with you on torps doing nothing to shields.. they certainly can and cruisers still get spread II or high yield II whichever of your choosing. Obviously builds are quite different across the board so torpedo damage varies in mileage, and if your finding torps being too restrictive for you, I'd suggest the rapid-reload transphasic torps, then it matters even less if shields are up or not. Grab a tractor too if you need something to hold your target long enough to squeeze the launcher in the arc, then your set.

My only 1 annoyance I get with torps is when that 30-45K tricobolt torpedo hits a shield sliver and is reduced to like 2K, but I shrug it off and just keep on the pressure.

Just read Memory Alpha about the Galaxy Class tactical systems and it will explain why it can fire a torpedo spread of five at one time. None of the other ship classes even mention it.

"There were also fore and aft torpedo launchers on the engineering section. (TNG: "Conundrum") Each launch tube was capable of firing at least five photon torpedoes simultaneously, each torpedo capable of being independently targeted. (TNG: "The Arsenal of Freedom", "Yesterday's Enterprise") "

Ref: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class
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