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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 115
# 21
11-27-2012, 03:47 PM
TOS: None really. There are the occasional episodes where a character annoyed me, but not really worth mentioning.

TNG: Deanna Troi. Just writing her name makes me cringe. She's just in the show for us guys to have something to look at. And she's not even very attractive in my honest opinion. And even her voice annoys me!

DS9: Jadzia. Her Ferengi/Klingon loving, smug, superior attitude kills it for me. Ezri didn't really make the whole "Dax" character better, but at least she was better looking.

VOY: This is probably my favorite Trek show, and this one wasn't hard at all. Kes. What was her role in all this? Except being Neelix's girlfriend until season 2 (Or 3, don't quite remember). Sure she gave the Doc company, and such but I'm sure everyone aboard would have managed without her. I certainly would.

ENT: Close one between T'pol and Travis. Travis edged it in the end. What was his role there? Never have I seen a main character less involved in a show. At times, I really wondered if he was a main character or just appeared every once in a while when they needed a helmsman.

Probably gonna have alot of people disagreeing with me, but oh well. So be it :L
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,388
# 22
11-27-2012, 03:48 PM
For the Nechayev haters... What was it that you disliked about her? Was it that she used to tell Picard what to do and make him do things like follow orders? Funnily enough, that was her job* Nechayev may not have been a Bridge Bunny, but look beyond the Power Business Woman, and she was clearly a serious Cougar... A fit young Ensign wanting a promotion had options Bularian canapes, hot chocolate, orchids and bath products, and she would have been nice as pie




*Same way as Admiral Dougherty was not a bad guy... He was trying to do something which would benefit all members of the Federation, and wound up getting manipulated and screwed over by the Son'a... I was never able to see him as a villain, merely an officer who gave Picard orders he [Picard] didn't want to perform (which in the eyes of fandom makes him The Bad Guy, when he really wasn't) When I read on Beta that his wife had died prior to the mission, it becomes clear that he truly was thinking about the Federation, not himself, and his grief may have clouded his judgement, and allowed the Son'a to manipulate him, but that doesn't make him a bad person, just Human and flawed...

Last edited by marcusdkane; 11-27-2012 at 04:13 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,388
# 23
11-27-2012, 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chokopop1 View Post
TOS: None really. There are the occasional episodes where a character annoyed me, but not really worth mentioning.

TNG: Deanna Troi. Just writing her name makes me cringe. She's just in the show for us guys to have something to look at. And she's not even very attractive in my honest opinion. And even her voice annoys me!

DS9: Jadzia. Her Ferengi/Klingon loving, smug, superior attitude kills it for me. Ezri didn't really make the whole "Dax" character better, but at least she was better looking.

VOY: This is probably my favorite Trek show, and this one wasn't hard at all. Kes. What was her role in all this? Except being Neelix's girlfriend until season 2 (Or 3, don't quite remember). Sure she gave the Doc company, and such but I'm sure everyone aboard would have managed without her. I certainly would.

ENT: Close one between T'pol and Travis. Travis edged it in the end. What was his role there? Never have I seen a main character less involved in a show. At times, I really wondered if he was a main character or just appeared every once in a while when they needed a helmsman.

Probably gonna have alot of people disagreeing with me, but oh well. So be it :L
Totally agree about Jadzia... Originally, she was one of my favorite characters, but when she started to get so heavily into Klingon Culture, she got very tedious very quickly. I wish they'd brought Ezri in maybe two seasons before, as I quite liked the uncertainty/instability of her character, so it would have been interesting to have seen her develop/settle further
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 24
11-27-2012, 04:06 PM
Hit list (with suggested cause of death and reasons)

Enterprise Malcom Reed (blown up in a shuttle pod accident) BAD English Accent and WORSE acting

Star Trek (original) Hard to choose just one but probably Garth (cut in half with an axe please) shapeshifting without a licence

TNG WESLEY (Temporal inversion beam) being a mary sue AND being plain annoying

Deep space Nine Ben Sisko (shot in the back by a bajoran ideally) Breach of military protocol and being a bad soldier

Voyager Seven of Nine (counter assimilation nanites BOOM ) being a Borg AND a sexualised doll
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 25
11-27-2012, 07:33 PM
Janeway or Seven? Well Seven at least had nice T&A. Janeway had nothing.

On every level Janeway's character was a failure. Her character was intended to be something that insecure white American women middle-managers would identify with, and in creating such a character, she took on all of the most repugnant characteristics of those people, while never evolving them beyond that level.

-insecure
-erratic
-pig-headed
-sentimental
-lacking in clear moral principles
-a bully and coward

Ever notice how Janeway only tries talking when she feels she is at a disadvantage? If she doesn't feel she is, then she doesn't bother trying to be reasonable. And when she does talk, she seems more interested in scoring points than in getting the other side to work with her. Example: "Year of Hell" or "Caretaker".

That is how a coward and bully behaves. Arrogant when one has the advantage, self-pitying when others do.

Janeway's character itself is vacuous. She's from Indiana (meant to be a cute country girl but more comes off as cultureless PWT); her interests include Velocity and, um, having dialogues with a virtual daVinci. She's supposed to have a scientific background, but that background never manifests itself in her character other than as a technical skill occasionally used as a plot device.

Janeway's character often feels like it is driven by the plot, rather than the other way around. She behaves in totally contradictory ways in similar situations. Some days she's charitable, others she doesn't give a sheet for anything other than her own selfish goals. Some days she's diplomatic, others she just says, "well my ship is more powerful than yours so FU". Some days she is all about protecting sentient life, others she glibly tells the Dr to delete himself on command.

In the utopian 24th century, she still hasn't gotten over having breasts, so she insists everyone address her as "ma'am". She seems incapable of forming relationships with men other than romance (Chatokay) or "nice guy" (Tuvok). And she's big into public displays of affection, something that makes her look weak, unprofessional, overly caught up in herself, and without respect for others' boundaries.

Even her personal appearance is silly. A ponytail? Really? Ponytails are for 15-year-old girls who are still giggling with their friends trying figure out what sex is. And no that is not a uniquely female issue, if Spock actually had an outrageous goatee throughout the entire series no one could take him seriously. Same as if we had a Trek regular who had a haircut out of Final Fantasy VII.

Combined with her computer-like voice, it just creates the overwhelming impression that Janeway is an uneasy character with no real personal identity. She doesn't know who she is (this ironically and perhaps unintentionally becoming a plot device in the last episode) or what she wants.

So what you have, is a protagonist who seems more like a stage extra: always driven by everything and everyone else in the plot.

Other bad characters:

-Wesley Crusher...insecure Mary Sue goody two-shoes that no man growing up would ever identify with because he has no sexuality, no "bad side", no real doubts or concerns or ambitions other than pure 'emo'...in short, Wesley Crusher was a born nobody with an IQ of 200.

-Benjamin Sisko...comes off as military trash, basically a thug, an angry black man who is quick to turn his frustration into intransigence, intimidation, and physical violence, giving life to racial stereotypes that are very bad in all theaters to say nothing of Trek. Having an unplanned pregnancy when your OTHER kid is like 20?

-Chatokay...was a bad character for the reason that he was too unbalanced and without any real weaknesses. If TNG ever needed a Christopher Pike, Chatokay would have been great understudy. On VOY, Chatokay felt like Picard wandering onto the set of Jersey Shore, or like Dr Strangelove's Lionel Mandrake and Jack Ripper co-starring in a sober drama instead of a comedy. A sane, well-rounded guy trying to make drama with a cast of high schoolers felt as herky-jerky as it would in real life.

-Tuvok...I hated Tuvok. Supposed to be Vulcan, logical being, but just comes off as a thug and a jerk. Whimsically mean. Habitual liar. Fanatically loyal to Janeway. Pedantic without being smart, wise or well-informed. Tuvok's character is completely 'illogical' in every sense because his behavior is completely irrational. Spock, of course, knew that "tolerance is logical" and was always portrayed as a scholar and gentleman for that reason. Tuvok just comes off as an angry black Vulcan with an attitude problem - again, I want to emphasize that I am not a racist...television is...and I think that is wrong.

Last edited by aestu; 11-27-2012 at 07:48 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 26
11-27-2012, 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
For the Nechayev haters... What was it that you disliked about her? Was it that she used to tell Picard what to do and make him do things like follow orders? Funnily enough, that was her job* Nechayev may not have been a Bridge Bunny, but look beyond the Power Business Woman, and she was clearly a serious Cougar... A fit young Ensign wanting a promotion had options Bularian canapes, hot chocolate, orchids and bath products, and she would have been nice as pie
It's really sad you think this way, tbh...you can't see a female character except as a sex object or a "womyn".
Blame the feminists for that, I guess.

Nechayev was a well-meaning but deeply flawed individual promoted to the level of her incompetence. She's not an idiot like Oliver from Fallout: New Vegas or vacuous like Janeway, she's just your ordinary administrator, doing the best she can with a very difficult situation.

The point of Nechayev is that she captures all the flaws of humanity and the pitfalls of hubris. What makes her a great character is that she is really and truly the greyest character in all of Trek. She shows just how easily things can come undone, not because of villains plotting evil but because of ordinary human foibles.

...

And yeah Jadzia sucked for all the same reasons. Ridiculously oversexualized and totally implausible. You're 200-odd years old but you still act like a high schooler? You have every technical skill in the book but your idea of fun is playing table tennis and roulette? And, uh, you run around doing Klingon stuff. Ever noticed how many times in the series Jadzia just opens her mouth for absolutely no other reason than to seek attention?

Last edited by aestu; 11-27-2012 at 07:58 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,142
# 27
11-27-2012, 07:56 PM
I disagree with those who said Worf is worst. He is the all time best Star Trek Character in all series and movies. Bringing him on ds9 saved the shows ratings.

My least favorite characters are Major Kira and Odo because they like to screw with one of my other favorite characters, Quark. I also didn't really care for Kes on Voyager, or Wesley on Next gen.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 28
11-27-2012, 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
I disagree with those who said Worf is worst. He is the all time best Star Trek Character in all series and movies. Bringing him on ds9 saved the shows ratings.
Worf was an interesting character for reasons that are too subtle to not be lost on most viewers.

It's a common thing that exiles become more ethnic than their ethnicity. You see this especially with Chinese or Jews or French who live in exile and become more extreme in their stereotyped ethnic manners than those living amongst their own people, who are in touch with society and how cultural traditions react in response to the demands of being the dominant culture.

So Worf goes home to a planet he hasn't seen in 25 years and acts like he thinks a Klingon should act. Problem is that the ethnic stereotype doesn't really work in real life and he realizes that he's so Klingon he's not Klingon at all.

Then there's Alexander and K'Hlyr. She was dead-on when she said, "you cling to honor because you are too afraid to face life without it". That is what makes Worf an interesting character. Do you say that he's honorable because he's courageous, or is honor just his teddy bear and excuse for dipping more ambiguous obligations like Alexander?

Worf's DS9 plot cycle was retarded and should be neatly excluded from the rest. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
My least favorite characters are Major Kira and Odo because they like to screw with one of my other favorite characters, Quark. I also didn't really care for Kes on Voyager, or Wesley on Next gen.
Kira was the same as Janeway but worse. Monstrously insecure coward and bully, quick to threaten others and quicker to cry when she was threatened by someone else. Can't deal with men in any other way than kissing them or beating the **** out of men twice her size. Fascinating. Not.

Last edited by aestu; 11-27-2012 at 08:10 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,388
# 29
11-28-2012, 03:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
It's really sad you think this way, tbh...you can't see a female character except as a sex object or a "womyn".
Blame the feminists for that, I guess.
Sorry, that was just my sarcastic humor not translating properly into text... When I first encountered Nechayev in TNG, I was in my mid-teens, and hadn't developed enough to recognize her for what she actually was (Other than as an obvious foil for Picard to rail against...) As I got older, I found that I had a taste for the older woman, and it's only looking back at Nechayev now, that I'm picking up that Cougar Vibe which had gone over my head in my youth (Sure, I always had a thing for Dr.Crusher, but she was obviously beautiful, and with a nice, caring demeanor, Lina always struck me as kinda prickly and unpleasant) But lets look at the facts here...

-She's an attractive, successful woman of a certain age.
-Collar and Cuffs don't match.
-She's concerned not only for her appearance, but not wanting to get fat.
-She's successful in her career, but has a massive chip on her shoulder.
-She's off-hand in her dealings with others (especially men in adult-hood)
-Not sure if I'd call her 'arrogant', but certainly vain...

Traits like that tend to be found in career-focused Business Women of a certain age, and invariably, they do not want partners who can compliment their lives, they go for Toy Boys who boost their egos. (Not that there's anything wrong with that at all ) If I had to compare Lina to another character, it would be Evelyn Harper. I think people just see her as a two dimensional demi-villain of the week, and overlook the blindingly obvious traits which make her rather awesome

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
Nechayev was a well-meaning but deeply flawed individual promoted to the level of her incompetence. She's not an idiot like Oliver from Fallout: New Vegas or vacuous like Janeway, she's just your ordinary administrator, doing the best she can with a very difficult situation.

The point of Nechayev is that she captures all the flaws of humanity and the pitfalls of hubris. What makes her a great character is that she is really and truly the greyest character in all of Trek. She shows just how easily things can come undone, not because of villains plotting evil but because of ordinary human foibles.
I totally agree, that's why I don't see her as a Bad Guy, or even as a dislikable character. (Those're just plot necessity) If I were my main character, living in the 2370s, she'd be on my Friends List
[Edit to add]
In response to the boldened text, that was precisely my point about Admiral Dougherty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
And yeah Jadzia sucked for all the same reasons. Ridiculously oversexualized and totally implausible. You're 200-odd years old but you still act like a high schooler? You have every technical skill in the book but your idea of fun is playing table tennis and roulette? And, uh, you run around doing Klingon stuff. Ever noticed how many times in the series Jadzia just opens her mouth for absolutely no other reason than to seek attention?
To quote Dave Hester: "Yuuuuup"

Last edited by marcusdkane; 11-28-2012 at 03:39 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,388
# 30
11-28-2012, 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
Worf was an interesting character for reasons that are too subtle to not be lost on most viewers.

It's a common thing that exiles become more ethnic than their ethnicity. You see this especially with Chinese or Jews or French who live in exile and become more extreme in their stereotyped ethnic manners than those living amongst their own people, who are in touch with society and how cultural traditions react in response to the demands of being the dominant culture.

So Worf goes home to a planet he hasn't seen in 25 years and acts like he thinks a Klingon should act. Problem is that the ethnic stereotype doesn't really work in real life and he realizes that he's so Klingon he's not Klingon at all.

Then there's Alexander and K'Hlyr. She was dead-on when she said, "you cling to honor because you are too afraid to face life without it". That is what makes Worf an interesting character. Do you say that he's honorable because he's courageous, or is honor just his teddy bear and excuse for dipping more ambiguous obligations like Alexander?

Worf's DS9 plot cycle was retarded and should be neatly excluded from the rest. Period.



Kira was the same as Janeway but worse. Monstrously insecure coward and bully, quick to threaten others and quicker to cry when she was threatened by someone else. Can't deal with men in any other way than kissing them or beating the **** out of men twice her size. Fascinating. Not.
I totally agree with your view on Worf (I enjoyed the DS-9 cycle and how he changed the tone of the show, but if I'm honest, I don't think he actually evolved or grew as a character during that time, I think he simply 'fit in better' than he had on the Enterprise-D) but I think you've forgotten something about Kira... She spent her whole life (prior to Emissary) as a resistance fighter, against an enemy that if captured by, would lead to the vilest physical abuse. It's no wonder that she has such a limited way of dealing with people, rather than the professionalism of a Federation-raised citizen. Ro wasn't as bad as Kira, but I always got the feeling that she grew up in off-world refugee camps, rather than Bajor itself. Kira grew up in the Lion's Den, where any weakness would have been pounced upon, it's not surprizing that she behaves the way she does...
(Not sure where Sito grew up, but she also had that constant nervous edgy fear about her, as if she'd maybe seen a mother or older sister abused by Cardassians as a child, and knew that only her age (at the time) spared her from being abused as well, and that now she was older, was expecting to be abused as well... I felt sorry for her)

Last edited by marcusdkane; 11-28-2012 at 03:50 AM.
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