Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,775
# 161
12-06-2012, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Due to the changed timeline piccard is never born
As I clearly stated that this is PRIME UNIVERSE discussion and NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with anything JJ related, I will allow you the opportunity to revise your reply before you embarrass yourself further...
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 162
12-06-2012, 03:47 PM
ANY presence of the Borg in the past erases the present

As soon as there are borg in enterprise Everything becomes damaged

but the whole thread is about jjverse

so Chillax
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,775
# 163
12-06-2012, 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
but the whole thread is about jjverse
The thread might be about the JJverse, but this sub-discussion on the Borg is NOT, therefore your claims that Picard will not be born, are utterly irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
ANY presence of the Borg in the past erases the present
Not so... The events of ST:First Contact restored the changes to the timeline, hence the following TNG shenanigans of Insurrection and Nemesis...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
As soon as there are borg in enterprise Everything becomes damaged
Again, not so... In Regeneration, the drones were dealt with by Archer and his flunkies as nothing more than 'villains of the week' (because none of the crew knew what the drones actually were) He acknowledged the threat to the 24th Century, but clearly did not care (because he wouldn't be alive to see it) hence why there was no damage to the timeline... To address your other points...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
but the borg drones Assuming they survived the explosion
Explosion of what? The Borg Sphere? Hang on to that thought for a second...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
(which they would not)
The drones found in the arctic were the two drones who got gfloated off the Enterprise-E deflector array...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
would have burned up on re-entry
Yet they clearly did not, or the events of Regeneration would not have occurred... Not implausible though... The Starfleet Survival Guide shows how to reconfigure the components of an EVA suit to form a crude field to survive re-entry... There are two options:

1. Either the drones' shielding protected them (from total disintegraton) during re-entry, or:
2. The drone's nanoprobes restored the drone's cybernetic and biological components from whatever was left from re-entry...

The options are irrelevant, as the drones were found in the arctic. I just wanted to highlight two very easy and plausible explanations for how that could have occurred...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
the Federations awareness of the borg in Archers time
renders the borg Nul in Piccards


See ANY contact with the Borg prior to TNG means hundreds of years of weapons design
and extinction for the Borg
Just to repeat my above point: Thanks to that smug bastard Archer, Starfleet never considered the Borg a credible threat... (although to give him credit, the drones didn't establish enough of a collective to identify themselves as the Borg... They were just a bunch of disconnected drones trying to re-establish contact with the collective...) Archer's attitude was clearly prevalent at Starfleet Command, because until the Hansens researched 'a cybernetic species' there was no awareness of the Borg at Starfleet Command (and were considered as being on the edges of the scientific community, not taken in any way seriously) so that is why Picard and co had no clue as to the Borg when Q flung the Enterprise-D in front of the cube... It simply was not 'open knowledge'...

Last edited by marcusdkane; 12-06-2012 at 04:38 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 164
12-06-2012, 04:36 PM
Quote:
The thread might be about the JJverse, but this sub-discussion on the Borg is NOT, therefore your claims that Picard will not be born, are utterly irrelevant.
even if he were to exist
he is unlikely to be in starfleet

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
ANY presence of the Borg in the past erases the present

Not so... The events of ST:First Contact restored the changes to the timeline, hence the following TNG shenanigans of Insurrection and Nemesis...
not if even ONE person died or even one borg survives

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
As soon as there are borg in enterprise Everything becomes damaged

Again, not so... In Regeneration, the drones were dealt with by Archer and his flunkies as nothing more than 'villains of the week'. He acknowledged the thread to the 24th Century, but clearly did not care (because he wouldn't be alive to see it) To address your other points...
unlikely
who knew better the perils of time damage than him?


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
but the borg drones Assuming they survived the explosion

Explosion of what? The Borg Sphere? Hang on to that thought for a second...
the Deflector dish "Assimilate this"


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
(which they would not)

The drones found in the arctic were the two drones who got gfloated off the Enterprise-E deflector array...
impossible
an organic Or even metal object the size of a man can not survive re-entry (and no borg force shield can protect them even Jason can't survive it )

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
would have burned up on re-entry

Yet they clearly did not, or the events of Regeneration would not have occured... Not implausible though... The Starfleet Survival Guide shows how to reconfigure the components of an EVA suit to form a crude field to survive re-entry... There are two options:
its IMPOSSIBLE

Quote:
1. Either the drones' shielding protected them (from total disintegraton) during re-entry, or:
2. The drone's nanoprobes restored the drone's cybernetic and biological components from whatever was left from re-entry...
or a very lazy writer didn't pay attention in school
Nano probes do not survive a microwave oven let alone re-entry

Quote:
The options are irrelevant, as the drones were found in the arctic, but I just wanted to highlight two very easy and plausible explanations...
and thus there is a new time line
in which the Borg are a known threat and are dealt with in seconds in the future

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
the Federations awareness of the borg in Archers time
renders the borg Nul in Piccards


See ANY contact with the Borg prior to TNG means hundreds of years of weapons design
and extinction for the Borg

Just to repeat my above point: Thanks to that smug bastard Archer, Starfleet never considered the Borg a credible threat... (although to give him credit, the drones didn't establish enough of a collective to identify themselves as the Borg... They were just a bunch of disconnected drones trying to re-establish contact with the collective...) Archer's attitude was clearly prevalent at Starfleet Command, because until the Hansens researched 'a cybernetic species' (and were considered as being on the edges of the scientific community, not taken in any way seriously) so that is why Picard and co had no clue as to the Borg when Q flung the Enterprise-D in front of the cube... It simply was not 'open knowledge'...
7

Section 1 STI (star fleet intelligence) is not that stupid
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,775
# 165
12-06-2012, 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
even if he were to exist
he is unlikely to be in starfleet
Again, completely and utterly irrelevant... Please do not reference your 'no Picard' nonsense again in this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
even if he were to exist
not if even ONE person died or even one borg survives
Yes! That was the point upon which Regeneration was based! Drones survived re-entry. I say 'survived', as they were not 'alive' when the researchers found them in the arctic, but their nanoprobes were still active and eventually restored them (both biologically and mechanically...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
unlikely
who knew better the perils of time damage than him?
Archer may have understood the perils of time damage, but, let me reinforce the point from the end of Regeneration: Archer. Did. Not. Care. He viewed the cyborgs he and his merry band dealt with as something that was effectively dealt with (or at least, postponed to a date where he would not have to deal with it) He could not warn Command about 'the Borg', because as in my last post, he did not confront 'the Borg', he confronted a group of disconnected drones, and viewed them as nothing more than cybernetic vampires/zombies. The word 'Borg' was never once uttered, so Command would have had no reference. Equally, as Archer earned himself some standing in Earth society (despite being a self-opinionated smug jackass) if he did not fully detail the threat that the drones posed to Starfleet, Command would have taken his reports as gospel, not pursued the issue further, and with no further Borg contact for centuries, no reason to doubt Archer's opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
even if he were to exist
the Deflector dish "Assimilate this"
Two drones got floated off the Enterprise-E before Worf destroyed the dish... (Technically, three drones got floated off, but while Hawk had been taken over by the Borg, he had not been equipped with enough hardware to give him Borg shielding, so he probably did burn up on re-entry...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
impossible
an organic Or even metal object the size of a man can not survive re-entry (and no borg force shield can protect them even Jason can't survive it )

its IMPOSSIBLE

or a very lazy writer didn't pay attention in school
Nano probes do not survive a microwave oven let alone re-entry
And yet the drones were found in the arctic. Forget if it is actually possible or not, the fact is, two drones were found in the arctic. That was what the writers wrote, and that was the canon which happened...
As I said above, the Starfleet Survival Guide details a way in which someone can potentially survive re-entry with only a modified EVA suit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
and thus there is a new time line
in which the Borg are a known threat and are dealt with in seconds in the future
The events of ST:First Contact and Regeneration were contained enough to prevent changes in the Prime Timeline (although in an alternative timeline, maybe things happened differently...) yet still explain why in Q-Who, the Borg were already heading for Earth...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Section 1 STI (star fleet intelligence) is not that stupid
Stupid no, complacent, yes. As mentioned, after the events of Regeneration, there was no formal contact of any kind with 'drones', so the opinion (thanks to Archer) was that there was no danger or threat to prepare for (even after Picard's first encounter with the Borg, Starfleet Tactical did not fully appreciate the threat posed, or Project Defiant would have been completed prior to the battle of Wolf 359) It's debatable as to if the Hansens even understood the threat which the Borg actually posed: Magnus was simply a man who was clearly obsessed with his field of research, and failed to fully consider the implications of attempting to study the Borg at close range. It's possible, however, that Starfleet Intelligence were responsible for Magnus being allowed to take the Raven to perform his field studies (which Intelligence likely thought nothing more than sensor echoes and tall tales from drunken shipping merchants) If the reports from the Neutral Zone had been properly correlated with the events of Archer's experience, then Command would have sent a starship to investigate, not just an over-sized runabout...

Last edited by marcusdkane; 12-06-2012 at 05:19 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 166
12-06-2012, 05:21 PM
Quote:
Again, completely and utterly irrelevant... Please do not reference your 'no Picard' nonsense again in this discussion.
please do not reference him yourself then

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
even if he were to exist
not if even ONE person died or even one borg survives

Yes! That was the point upon which Regeneration was based! Drones survived re-entry. I say 'survived', as they were not 'alive' when the researchers found them in the arctic, but their nanoprobes were still active and eventually restored them (both biologically and mechanically...)
which is not what nanoprobes do
But even one borg the timeline is GONE


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
unlikely
who knew better the perils of time damage than him?

Archer may have understood the perils of time damage, but, let me reinforce the point from the end of Regeneration: Archer. Did. Not. Care.
unlikely
Quote:
He viewed the cyborgs he and his merry band dealt with as something that was effectively dealt with (or at least, postponed to a date where he would not have to deal with it) He could not warn Command about 'the Borg', because as in my last post, he did not confront 'the Borg', he confronted a group of disconnected drones, and viewed them as nothing more than cybernetic vampires/zombies. The word 'Borg' was never once uttered, so Command would have had no reference. Equally, as Archer earned himself some standing in Earth society (despite being a self-opinionated smug jackass) if he did not fully detail the threat that the drones posed to Starfleet, Command would have taken his reports as gospel, not pursued the issue further, and with no further Borg contact for centuries, no reason to doubt Archer's opinion.
Science command would have disected the drones to the last component
Intel would have investigated them


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
even if he were to exist
the Deflector dish "Assimilate this"

Two drones got floated off the Enterprise-E before Worf destroyed the dish... (Technically, three drones got floated off, but while Hawk had been taken over by the Borg, he had not been equipped with enough hardware to give him Borg shielding, so he probably did burn up on re-entry...
None of them could survive re-entry


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
impossible
an organic Or even metal object the size of a man can not survive re-entry (and no borg force shield can protect them even Jason can't survive it )

its IMPOSSIBLE

or a very lazy writer didn't pay attention in school
Nano probes do not survive a microwave oven let alone re-entry

And yet the drones were found in the arctic. Forget if it is actually possible or not, the fact is, two drones were found in the arctic. That was what the writers wrote, and that was the canon which happened...
and thus the timeline is re-written

Quote:
As I said above, the Starfleet Survival Guide details a way in which someone can potentially survive re-entry with only a modified EVA suit...
then its WRONG

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
and thus there is a new time line
in which the Borg are a known threat and are dealt with in seconds in the future

The events of ST:First Contact and Regeneration were contained enough to prevent changes in the Prime Timeline (although in an alternative timeline, maybe things happened differently...) yet still explain why in Q-Who, the Borg were already heading for Earth...
which is bogus really isn't it

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Section 1 STI (star fleet intelligence) is not that stupid

Stupid no, complacent, yes. As mentioned, after the events of Regeneration, there was no formal contact of any kind with 'drones', so the opinion (thanks to Archer) was that there was no danger or threat to prepare for (even after Picard's first encounter with the Borg, Starfleet Tactical did not fully appreciate the threat posed, or Project Defiant would have been completed prior to the battle of Wolf 359) It's debatable as to if the Hansens even understood the threat which the Borg posed: Magnus was simply a man who was clearly obsessed with his field of research, and failed to fully consider the implications of attempting to study the Borg at close range. It's possible, however, that Starfleet Intelligence were responsible for Magnus being allowed to take the Raven to perform his field studies (which Intelligence likely thought nothing more than sensor echoes and tall tales from drunken shipping merchants) If the reports from the Neutral one had been properly correlated with the events of Archer's experience, then Command would have sent a starship to investigate, not just an over-sized runabout...
the timeline re-write would also probably change that

thats the problem with time travel

I drop a single steel screw in the trojan wars and Greece rules the world by 1000 AD

Time is something you can't mess with with impunity
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 170
# 167
12-06-2012, 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poopbang View Post
Thats exacly what I thought when the Entreprise fired on Nero's ship.
Its not the first time it's been equipped with those either. Take a look at the weapons used on the refit in 2 and 3. Those arent arrays they're wielding more like high degree beam banks. But you could easilly claim cannons given their firing rate.

Quote:
Enterprise would be history by the time of Spock's/Nero's actions, but 150 years of future history have been thrown in the crapper.
The only reason the Borg became aware of humanity was due to Q's meddling, avoid Q, avoid the Borg. If the Borg never came to the Alpha quadrant to begin with they would never have gone back to Earths history to eventually be found by the NX01.
The only reason for Khan being found was because the Enterprise was in the right place at the right time to find the Botany Bay, put the Enterprise somewhere else and the Bounty bay continues to drift in empty space and Khan and the augments remain a historical footnote.
This time travel nonsense has thrown a wrench in the works of all of the Star Trek we know, that's why they did it, so then can make up all new stories that have nothing to do with Star Trek's history.

Instead of creating something that fits with the existing franchise, they pushed the magic reset button, time travel, which in my opinion, sucks.
Not entirely. On the subject of the borg V-ger has widely been suggested to be a borg encounter. Not provable outside of EU but if it is that changes a great deal, Q hasnt made himself visible in this universe but i'm expecting it.

Khan: Probably gets found by someone else at a far later date. Key events outside of the federation controll (Such as Praxis) WILL still likely happen.

Quote:
And that this will be a new story but maybe with nods to Gary Mitchell, Charlie X, Trelane, Apollo, and even a Q, perhaps all of whom have been subjected to Section 31 analysis and/or autopsies. Maybe Khan as well and maybe the alien from Star Trek V.
Novels Confirm Trelane was infact an early Q. (one of my favorites involved him in TNG.) i know its not canon but it makes a lot of sense actually.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,775
# 168
12-06-2012, 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
please do not reference him yourself then
I am discussing the Borg as seen in the Prime Timeline in which Picard lived with no reference to the JJVerse at all. You are discussing either the JJVerse, or something of your own extrapolation of the JJVerse with regard to 'no Piccard'. I refuse to discuss the Borg as they may apply to the JJVerse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
which is not what nanoprobes do
Nanoprobes maintain the biological and technological components of Borg drones. They restore damage mechanically, and heal wounds biologically. As early as Q-Who, Borg technology has shown the ability to restructure itself when damaged to become operational again. The drones in the arctic may have expired due to their organic component's exposure to extreme cold at any time prior to their discovery. While they may have been either flatlined or immediately incapacitated upon re-entry, theoretically, they may have been been wandering around the arctic, freezing, reviving, re-freezing etc for the better part of a century... (a similar scenario is presented in The Zombie Survival Guide)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
unlikely
Review the episode. At the end, Archer effectively 'washed his hands' of the situation when he discussed it with T'Pol, as he knew he would not be alive to have to deal with it further. He knew that another, later, crew would have to deal with it, but he clearly did not understand what that would mean because of the following point:
As above, the crew were dealing with drones, not the Collective. They had no way of knowing they were dealing with the Borg, and no way of communicating to Starfleet Command something which was completely unbeknownst to them...

Additionally, as Archer's opinions and excuse of 'command decisions' were taken as gospel, Starfleet Command would have had no reason to doubt his final report on the incident: Cybernetic lifeforms run amok in the arctic and steal a shuttle. Cybernetic lifeforms get neutralized by the NX 01 ergo problem solved... The threat which would occur in the future if/when the message is/was received and acted upon, was not understood as the threat which the Borg pose, because as above, the crew did not deal with 'the Borg'. In his perpetual arrogance, Archer probably thought that the future threat would be no more dangerous than the partially assimilated Tarkaleans...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Science command would have disected the drones to the last component
Intel would have investigated them
But thanks to the crew of the NX 01, there were no drones to dissect... Just the scrap and wreckage from the Borg Sphere in the arctic... Maybe a few additional pieces of technology, but certainly not enough [metaphorical] pieces to put together a proper picture of what had been encountered, for that threat to have been properly understood, nor for the non-threat of the encounter to have even remained in the minds of Starfleet Command between the events of Regeneration and Q-Who...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
None of them could survive re-entry
But two fully assimilated drones clearly DID survive re-entry to be found in the arctic! Stop being pedantic about the realistic potential, it is irrelevant to the events of the episode. As I said before, two drones got floated off the Enterprise-E before Worf destroyed the deflector dish... Those drones somehow survived re-entry and wound up in the arctic. Whether you find that plausible or not is not the point...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
and thus the timeline is re-written
Not so. We are dealing with a causality loop. The events which transpired in ST:First Contact and Regeneration were always meant to happen. If they had not happened, the Borg in the 22nd Century would not have left the Delta Quadrant on a direct course for Earth...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
then its WRONG
Oh really? A Paramount-licensed publication of the Starfleet Survival Guide is wrong? And to think they say Vulcans have no sense of humor

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
which is bogus really isn't it
Not at all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
the timeline re-write would also probably change that
In the Prime Universe, THERE IS NO RE-WRITE of the timeline... Predestination of events, and restoration of damage done when the Borg initially traveled into the past, prevented First Contact and assimilate the Earth, but no re-write...

For the record, I think Magnus Hansen was a good man, but a fool who dragged his wife and child into a situation he had no comprehension of...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
thats the problem with time travel

I drop a single steel screw in the trojan wars and Greece rules the world by 1000 AD

Time is something you can't mess with with impunity
I quite agree... However, although the Borg Situation involves time travel, it does not actually involve re-writes to the timeline (which were restored/resolved when the Borg Queen was thwarted aboard the Enterprise-E) and equally, the events documented in Regeneration do not 'create an awareness of The Borg' with Starfleet Command... Maybe one of Magnus Hansen's ancestors was, or knew, one of the arctic researchers... Familial history can be a powerful motivating factor...

Last edited by marcusdkane; 12-06-2012 at 06:26 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 169
12-06-2012, 06:34 PM
Quote:
Nanoprobes maintain the biological and technological components of Borg drones. They restore damage mechanically, and heal wounds biologically. As early as Q-Who, Borg technology has shown the ability to restructure itself when damaged to become operational again. The drones in the arctic may have expired due to their organic component's exposure to extreme cold at any time prior to their discovery. While they may have been either flatlined or immediately incapacitated upon re-entry, theoretically, they may have been been wandering around the arctic, freezing, reviving, re-freezing etc for the better part of a century... (a similar scenario is presented in The Zombie Survival Guide)
Which is also impossible
(Zombies do not exist if they did however microbes would reduce them to SOUP within weeks)
The point being nanites and nanoprobes can Not survive in a microwave , a hot cup of tea or a mild acid
and Borg nanites like any nanites need raw materials AND a power source

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
unlikely

Review the episode. At the end, Archer effectively 'washed his hands' of the situation when he discussed it with T'Pol, as he knew he would not be alive to have to deal with it further. He knew that another, later, crew would have to deal with it, but he clearly did not understand what that would mean because of the following point:
As above, the crew were dealing with drones, not the Collective. They had no way of knowing they were dealing with the Borg, and no way of communicating to Starfleet Command something which was completely unbeknownst to them...
However T'pol is several times smarter than him
and Loyal to Vulcan so almost certainly filed a report
And incidentally a pair of borg is still a collective just a really DUMB one
(borg Intelligence depends on numbers)

Quote:
Additionally, as Archer's opinions and excuse of 'command decisions' were taken as gospel, Starfleet Command would have had no reason to doubt his final report on the incident: Cybernetic lifeforms run amok in the arctic and steal a shuttle. Cybernetic lifeforms get neutralized by the NX 01 ergo problem solved... The threat which would occur in the future if/when the message is/was received and acted upon, was not understood as the threat which the Borg pose, because as above, the crew did not deal with 'the Borg'. In his perpetual arrogance, Archer probably thought that the future threat would be no more dangerous than the partially assimilated Tarkaleans...
As I say Starfleet is not that dumb


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Science command would have disected the drones to the last component
Intel would have investigated them

But thanks to the crew of the NX 01, there were no drones to dissect... Just the scrap and wreckage from the Borg Sphere in the arctic... Maybe a few additional pieces of technology, but certainly not enough [metaphorical] pieces to put together a proper picture of what had been encountered, for that threat to have been properly understood, nor for the non-threat of the encounter to have even remained in the minds of Starfleet Command between the events of Regeneration and Q-Who...
one nano probe
one implant
and you know everything you need to know
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
None of them could survive re-entry

But two fully assimilated drones clearly DID survive re-entry to be found in the arctic! Stop being pedantic about the realistic potential, it is irrelevant to the events of the episode. As I said before, two drones got floated off the Enterprise-E before Worf destroyed the deflector dish... Those drones somehow survived re-entry and wound up in the arctic. Whether you find that plausible or not is not the point...
I find it evidence of lazy writing and a paradox (an unresolved one)
its impossible (no forcefield could protect them)


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
and thus the timeline is re-written

Not so. We are dealing with a causality loop. The events which transpired in ST:First Contact and Regeneration were always meant to happen. If they had not happened, the Borg in the 22nd Century would not have left the Delta Quadrant on a direct course for Earth...
Which indicates predestination Thus the existance of a God
and that Q is a glove puppet

but loops always self consume

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
then its WRONG

Oh really? A Paramount-licensed publication of the Starfleet Survival Guide is wrong? And to think they say Vulcans have no sense of humor
utterly
they licenced deck plans of the Enterprise at one time where the Transporter room was much smaller than shown on the TV

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
which is bogus really isn't it

Not at all...
yes its bogus


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
the timeline re-write would also probably change that

In the Prime Universe, THERE IS NO RE-WRITE of the timeline... Predestination of events, and restoration of damage done when the Borg initially traveled into the past, prevented First Contact and assimilate the Earth, but no re-write...
Thats a re-write (actually many of the movies indicate the changes look at insurrection starfleet has turned bad or Nemesis where Romulans have turned STUPID)


Quote:
For the record, I think Magnus Hansen was a good man, but a fool who dragged his wife and child into a situation he had no comprehension of...
the word you are looking for i think is "idiot"
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
thats the problem with time travel

I drop a single steel screw in the trojan wars and Greece rules the world by 1000 AD

Time is something you can't mess with with impunity

I quite agree... However, although the Borg Situation involves time travel, it does not actually involve re-writes to the timeline (which were fixed when the Borg Queen was thwarted aboard the Enterprise-E) and equally, the events documented in Regeneration do not 'create an awareness of The Borg' with Starfleet Command... Maybe one of Magnus Hansen's ancestors was, or knew, one of the arctic researchers... Familial history can be a powerful motivating factor...
and maybe the Borg Queen was part of the project as well
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,775
# 170
12-06-2012, 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Which is also impossible
(Zombies do not exist if they did however microbes would reduce them to SOUP within weeks)
The point being nanites and nanoprobes can Not survive in a microwave , a hot cup of tea or a mild acid
and Borg nanites like any nanites need raw materials AND a power source
My friend, you really need to learn how to understand the concepts of Suspension of Disbelief, and Writer's License...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Which is also impossible
However T'pol is several times smarter than him
and Loyal to Vulcan so almost certainly filed a report
T'Pol might have been more intelligent than Archer, but her thinking (and that of many Vulcans of the era) was very rigid and restricted. She probably filed a report about what happened, but would not have included Archer's musings about Cochrane's claims of cybernetic creatures from the future... Vulcans of the era considered time travel an utter impossibility. Discussing the subject was enough to get her as 'angry' as a Vulcan would be willing to display in public... The combination of Vulcan stubbornness and Human arrogance would be more than enough for cybernetically gimped up Tarkaleans to not be considered as anything other than an unfortunate incident and eventually forgotten...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
And incidentally a pair of borg is still a collective just a really DUMB one
(borg Intelligence depends on numbers)
Technically, yes. The point I am making, is that the drones did not ever refer to themselves as 'the Borg' (even when they started to cube-out the captured ship) In fairness to the crew, they would not have known they were dealing with Borg, what the Borg were, or the potential threat they represented...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
As I say Starfleet is not that dumb
Again, Vulcan stubborness and Human arrogance means that yes, they clearly were that dumb, as the crew of the Enterprise-D had no idea what they came up against thanks to Q's shenanigans... You say Starfleet is not that dumb: Why was Project Defiant mothballed prior to Wolf 359? That says all that needs to be said for the arrogance and stupidity of bureaucracy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
one nano probe
one implant
and you know everything you need to know
Shelby would have known, but she hadn't been born at the time... No one at the time knew what they had or what they were dealing with. Analogy: The scientists working on the Manhattan Project would have about as much understanding of a broken iPad, as Starfleet Command in Archer's era had of whatever Borg scraps they salvaged from the arctic...

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Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
I find it evidence of lazy writing and a paradox (an unresolved one)
its impossible (no forcefield could protect them)
Again, Suspension of Disbelieve and Writer's License...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Which indicates predestination Thus the existance of a God
and that Q is a glove puppet
And your issue with that is what?

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Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
but loops always self consume
This one resolves/continues itself rather nicely...

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Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Which is also impossible
they licenced deck plans of the Enterprise at one time where the Transporter room was much smaller than shown on the TV
The TNG Technical Manual shows devices which would now be described and widely recognized as tablets... The description of a saucer landing was the inspiration for the scene in ST:Generations... Personally speaking, I think the writer of Regeneration did a good job of working with what they had in terms of introducing a Borg threat without compromising the lack of knowledge about the Borg in any TOS or TNG episode till Q-Who...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Which is also impossible
Thats a re-write (actually many of the movies indicate the changes look at insurrection starfleet has turned bad or Nemesis where Romulans have turned STUPID)
Starfleet had not turned bad in Insurrection... Admiral Dougherty was grieving the death of his wife, which impaired his judgement enough to allow him to be manipulated by the Son'a (who also betrayed and killed him) He only wanted to bring the benefits of metaphasics to all of the Federation (he refused Ru'afo's offer of 'treatment' from his attendants giving precisely that reason)... The Romulans weren't stupid in Nemesis either... Well, Donatra seemed a pretty savvy lady...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
the word you are looking for i think is "idiot"
He meant well, but had the naivete of a scientist to not realize that the subject of his study was so potentially dangerous, but at the end of the day, yes, he was an idiot for exposing his wife and child to such a situation... However, he was probably the only person in the 24th Century (other than the El-Aurians) prior to Q-Who, who actually had any real interest in the Borg at all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
and maybe the Borg Queen was part of the project as well
Maybe... She had her fingers in quite a few pies...

Last edited by marcusdkane; 12-06-2012 at 07:28 PM.
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