Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 73
Ive written a lot of about sucky 7 and how it would seriously slow down or shut down fleet progression and how this would hurt the game. Anybody that knows me, knows that Im a big fleet guy. Im in several fleets in a variety of roles and capacities that differ from fleet to fleet and I believe in loyalty and friendship and being an asset to a fleet when you wear their flag.

The Devs kind of sneered at us that made these predictions and the fan boys have been screaming that we were wrong but many of us made a series of bold predictions about how fleets and the game would be hurt with the upcoming changes. Clearly its believable that those of us that play the game and made predictions and warnings are not in the second guessing bandwagon jumping crowd. We were talking about these things before they went into place and Cryptic just didnt care.

There are a variety of items needed for fleet progression in projects but the 3 that concern me the most are dilithium, duty officers, and fleet marks. Sure needs for Dosi Rotgut got reduced and this needed to be done but the big 3 are what drive fleet progression.

Clearly, players and fleets are having the biggest issues with dilithium. You look on the forums and people are making multiple threads about how featured projects cost too much and are only cosmetic and should be avoided. Some fleets have started avoiding with prejudice any project that requires dilithium. Others are stuck and watch projects that they cant remove rot for weeks as players just dont have dili to donate anymore. You used to could go buy some zen and convert it to dilithium and jump start projects but with the collapse of the dilithium market thats not an option anymore unless real world money is not a concern in your life.

Fleet marks are problematic. Many fleets are stuck on projects because their members either can not or refuse to earn fleet marks by doing missions they do not like. There have been lots of complaints by fleets that are stuck on fleet mark portions of their projects that they cannot advance anymore. Its not uncommon for small fleets to hope to get to tier 2 and just stop there and give up moving farther.

Cursor is way ahead of the curve and hes one of the smartest, greatest, and most valuable players in the game. Cryptic would be wise to listen to everything he says. Few in this game understand how hard he works and what he accomplishes with his time spent here. Hes a duty officer guy and in 95% of his threads hes pointing out how the collapse of the duty officer markets are hurting the game. Hes polite and easily overlooked but Im here to tell you - He aint wrong and people better wake up and start listening to him. The same is true with Aelfwin and several others that are pounding these boards in polite nature. Lets just cut to the chase and point out that when fleet projects slow down due to need of fleet marks or dilithium that fewer new projects get loaded and duty officers and other requirements needed to advance a project get thrown aside because fleets are stuck on a project that is difficult to clear.

The fallout on all of this is immense. Look at all the threads on the board. Small fleets are in distress. Some have folded and others have been absorbed by larger fleets. They are in a catch 22. They cant grow without growing members and one of the first things loners ask when you try to recruit them is, "what tier is your fleet on?". You have people all over these boards pointing fingers at each other and calling each other lazy. This player to my knowledge cannot remember calling other players lazy. If you choose to spend time going to a job or kissing your wife or kicking a soccer ball to a daughter then thats fine with me. Other people think that if you do not devote hours per day to the game then you shouldnt be here and you definately shouldnt complain about not having dilithium or fleet marks to contribute to reputation or fleet. Its a bad vibe and pall over this game. Star Trek was a classless society and we are now polarizing players between the hard core gamers and the casuals and I think its a trend that should stop.

People are complaining about leeches in missions. Cryptic is forcing people to do missions they may not like and/or do not want to do in order to earn specific types of pay for their time. Cryptic is assuming that all their missions are fun and that everybody will be willing to do each one dozens or hundreds of times to earn what they desire. They are wrong and mistaken about this trend. Many of us pointed out before season 7 arrived that you could force people to do missions they didnt like for needed rewards but trying to force them to enjoy them or participate in them was not going to fly so well. Seeing a big long thread about leeches and multiple complaints, and pages of replies makes me a bit sad. I understand peoples viewpoints but this isnt Trek.

Time gating other peoples free time is a huge mistake. Its disrespectful, arrogant, and cold hearted. Cryptic is creating an open society where players that have invested time and money feel more "entitled" to privelege and quality of respect and reward. Indeed this is a massive mistake because everyone who spends time here should feel a sense of fun for their time spent rather than being treated like a second rate citizen. We do not need a caste system and untouchables. We need a fun game for everyone.

Cryptic reaped many benefits from the daily log in bonus that they allowed for months. Calling the clickie missions exploits and sneering at players for using them seems to be hypocritical. The log in bonus helped players earn fleet marks and use them to advance fleet projects forward. As fleet projects advanced forward, people bought dilithium with zen to donate to projects and they bought duty officer packs so they could donate dilithium to fleet projects. A few people would buy other things to sell on the exchange so they could earn energy credits and use them to clear fleet projects. It costs money for commodities and the player that bought an Aenar bridge officer and sold it on the exchange so they could buy commodities and advance a project forward helped the game in a multitude of ways.

Now Cryptic and the devs sneer at these players for using "exploits" and is a half step away from calling them cheats and scofflaws and people who abused the "system".

Well there was a lot of good done by those exploits. Small fleets had a "hope" of advancement and the ability to recruit new players and progress. Fleets had stocked stores and their members could buy fleet modules and new ships. People bought far more zen to donate to fleet projects. People could do missions they wanted to do instead of boring missions they dont like in order to earn stuff they feel they need to stay current on a technological basis. The game was more fun and less work and people seemed just a bit nicer to each other with little need to call each other lazy, leaches, cheats, and all the other garbage flying around post sucky 7. Duty officers were once worth something and it goes on and on and on.

I like the new content of season 7. I like the fact that new players are coming to the game and a few older players are returning to give it a second chance. But there are some really ugly trends building strong roots and I doubt they are going to go away any time soon. Small fleets and casual players are getting the shaft and the player base is choosing sides and polarizing itself. Players are spending less money on Zen, fleet modules, duty officers, and many other things because fleets are not advancing their projects. A guy like Cursor that would work his tail off farming duty officers and buying keys with energy credits was good for the game because he was and maybe still is a guy that buys so many keys it gives other players a reason to hit the plastic and list keys on the exchange. But gradually that starts to die as the value of doffins collapses.

This game is heading in the wrong direction with time gates, disrespect of players, and collapsing economic models and the value of Zen.

Many of us warned this would happen. We were told we were wrong. We were right. And weve had time to digest sucky 7 and watch our predictions come true. Cryptic is in a bit of panic mode and making small changes to boost dilithium but its not enough. The games getting ruder and players are starting to simmer a bit at each other and we are seeing a trickle exodus of the nice good guy players and especially casuals start to trickle away or perhaps just play less.

Cryptic needs to restore the log in bonus; get fleet projects moving forward again; quit gating peoples time; and restore the game to a sense of fun rather than neverending grind.

Weve had a few weeks to digest the changes; and frankly the people who predicted the snarkiness that season 7 brought into a fun happy game based on the ideals of Trek were dead on accurate. Its not unfair to suggest that Cryptic must feel surprised that people would react as they did and balk hard at being asked to punt fun and grind.

It would be easy to fix things but Cryptic needs to start by showing respect for players to do it. If Cryptic doesnt respect their players and the time they spend in game, they will cut their own throats and the game is doomed.

We need to be more social, more tolerant of fun, nicer to each other, and respectful of time and attention invested in the game.

Restoring the log in bonus would be a good start towards this trend and making the game easier for those that are casual players and / or in small friendly fleets. Injecting more fun into the economy of the game is a rising tide that will lift all ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 115
# 2
11-28-2012, 10:50 PM
Everyone at Cryptic is incompetent. They have spent almost 3 years trashing the game to the point where its now become a job to the players. MMOs are suppose to be fun not second jobs. Grinding is for worthless asian players not western players. Fun died shortly after the chinese losers bought them.

I've been playing this game since launch and the fun just isn't there anymore.

CBS needs to pull the plug on this joke of a Star Trek game.

Last edited by mindmage2; 11-29-2012 at 12:58 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 560
# 3
11-28-2012, 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugshu View Post
***snip***
All too true. Dan's rhetoric about how dilithium gain has been increased is just empty rethoric. As has been pointed out elsewhere on this board (an excellent analysis, btw. Sorry I forgot your name), dilithium gain has been increase around ~10%. Unfortunately, the time required of us in order to earn this has been disproportionately and vastly increased as well.

It now takes longer to work through our dailies. It takes us more time to earn a measly 10% more dilithium, which means we get even less time to actually enjoy the social aspect of this game.

More time per day spent grinding for less. Less time to socialize. Less time to enjoy foundry missions. Less time feeling like we're playing a game, and more like we're working a second (or third) job.

They've already said that it takes the average player 4 hours to hit the daily refining cap. They also said the average player only plays 3.5 hours a day. Obviously, their solution to increasing dilithium in the market is to increase the time it takes to hit the cap. Elementary school math at work here, folks.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,176
# 4
11-28-2012, 11:58 PM
i fully agree with the OP.

to illustrate the problem with the current state of the game ill post an analysis i wrote for another thread:

i think they need to rethink the strategy.

if an average player has 3 hours a day to play the game, it SHOULD be possible to finish teh daily grind for 1 toon in 2 hours.

what is a daily grind?
- 8000 dill
- 100 romulan marks
- 100 omega marks
- 100 fleet marks
- setting the DOFF's

the last, 3rd hour should be optional and just for fun, or for alts.

problems:
- to reach 8000 dill takes an average player 4.5 hours
- to reach 100 fleet marks seems to be impossible (cryptic, this is VITAL = give us FREE 50 marks for a daily log-in)
- the omega marks are fine
- the romulan marks rate for fleet actions and ground missions should be increased
- DOFF'S are ok

what can i do in 2 hours?
- DOFF's - 15 minutes (average 2500 DILL earned)
- romulan patrol daily - 30 minutes (60 romulan marks)
- 2 STF's - 2000 dill, 120 omega marks, 40 minutes sometimes more when doing the ground ones or PUGging
- 10 minutes clicking the rewards for fleet and reputation system
- 5 minutes to say hello to fleet

we are at 1:45 hours now, we have played very efficiently, had no FUN, weren't on New Romulus for tagging eppohs, did no PVP, have 4k dill, 60 romulan marks, enough omega marks, some 200k from selling the loot, and got NO fleet marks.. so you queue a fleet action rewarding fleet marks, you do one run, get some 17 to 27 fleet marks..

how long do you need to get the missing 4k dill/40 romulan marks/70 fleet marks? where is the fun?

you see the problem?

Join the premiere Romulan community now!

Last edited by duaths1; 11-29-2012 at 12:00 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 742
# 5
11-29-2012, 02:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugshu View Post
Ive written a lot of about sucky 7 and how it would seriously slow down or shut down fleet progression and how this would hurt the game. Anybody that knows me, knows that Im a big fleet guy. Im in several fleets in a variety of roles and capacities that differ from fleet to fleet and I believe in loyalty and friendship and being an asset to a fleet when you wear their flag.

***Snip***
Elequently put, very well said. I cant add much more to the OP's thoughts.

Our fleet is only small, 6 people and their alts. Before S7 we were all really proud of the fact that we'd reached tier 2 on the Fed SB, even the KDF base was ticking along well. Not a bad achievement for such a small group of loyal players. We were, in fact still are, half way to tier 3 on the fed base.

S7 hits the server and fleet progression all but grinds *pardon the pun* to a halt.

Its not so much the Dilithium thats a problem, as I see it with our fleet, but its a lack of FM.

Fleet members dont want to be doing fleet alerts over and over again just to progress a project. We have 3 stuck now, all needing 600 FM and this has now been further compounded by the addition of the embassy. Personally I dont see the fun in logging into the game and then spending all night grinding for FM to add to the projects, as well as having now to grind for reputation marks/Omega marks.

Thats were the removal of the "clickies" has hit our fleet the most. It was ideal to grind those for the FM, not so much for the dilithium.

OK I conceed that they were being abused but as I said its the FM thats the most missed reward.

I've suggested elsewhere that a simple solution would be to change the 5FM awarded by the "officer of the watch" missions to 50FM. That alone would kickstart progression for us again. A simple change but a huge benefit to small fleets.

It wouldnt take much to nudge this ship back on course. All it needs is for Cryptic to sacrifice a little revenue in exchange for a happier player base.

Just my 2 Energy Credits.
Admiral Rednall
* Server Hamster - This time it's personal *
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,057
# 6
11-29-2012, 03:08 AM
Right now, for me, it is the SEVERE Fleet Mark shortage along with the Dilithium problem. These are two crucial items that is needed for Fleet projects and as of now are in short supply. The Officer Daily Report supplies 50 Fleet Mark, but, it now takes too long to complete them. That was my main source of Fleet Mark along with a decent amount of Dilithium.

The Fleet Actions take far too long to complete and net the least amount of Fleet marks - The only Fleet event worth doing are the ground ones, and even those take a bit long to complete. Basically what I am stating that the reward still does not fit the length of time - it is out of balance. This is suppose to be a game for casuals, not diehard Farmers.

Update on Doff & the Academy:

I am relieved that the specific Profession Doff acquistion have not been touched by the Dilithium Demon - Though I am sadden that the free doff pack is now at a 1K D cost, at least the others remain free.

Here is the sad part, they really didn't need to add the 1K Dilithium cost, for starter the pack only nets 2 common Doffs with a chance of a uncommon, rare, or Very rare - and on a Crit, nets you three commons.

It was pointless for them to do so, since the Doff packs bought with Zen are far superior than what was given at the academy.

CRYPTIC - Logically you should re-think your position on this.

Last edited by stark2k; 11-29-2012 at 03:22 AM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 441
# 7
11-29-2012, 03:17 AM
It's very late where I am, and this'll probably be the last thing I type up at the computer for the night (morning?), so I will be brief.
I definitely understand where the OP and others are coming from (though the hyperbole and the blase name calling, e.g., "sucky 7 remarks", are unnecessary). The player base on the forums are under the impression that Fleet Progression is slowing down to a startling degree, exponentially so the smaller the fleet is. And being a member of a small fleet myself (Yay, Voyagers!), I can easily understand this. I may not be a whiz at numbers, but even I can see how things look from my end. It doesn't bother us as much because we're very casual and just try to have fun, but even we must admit: it'd be nice to have a reasonable time frame to look forward to when unlocking new Starbase/Embassy things.
Honestly, this strikes me as a simple problem of math.
Cryptic added in a completely new subsection to the Fleet that, in essence, function as a "Fleet Within a Fleet" unto itself. I am naturally referring to the Embassy. It takes the same amount of resources to upgrades as the regular starbase, in addition to unique embassy provisions.
Yet they did nothing to adjust the cost of accruing resources whatsoever. Indeed, they actually made it more difficult to acquire dilithium, a key resource for many things. And yes, I know, they've returned the dilithium earned to STF's, to a limited degree (not enough).
And we're somehow expected to keep up with all this.
It seems to me that this can be solved in two ways, and both require a significant adjustment to some very basic number.
Solution One: Halve all the requirements for resources needed to progress through the Starbase/Embassy tiers, without touching the Starbase/Embassy XP gain.
Solution Two: Double all instances where necessary resources to Starbase/Embassy progression are earned, again, without touching the Starbase/Embassy XP gain.
Dark horse Solution Three: Leave Starbase numbers alone, reduce all Embassy resource requirements by two thirds, once again, without touching the Embassy XP gain.
I mean, it makes sense to me. You either increase or decrease certain values and requirements by a factor of two if we now have double the facilities to worry about.
Did no one at Cryptic think of this? Or did someone, did they voice it, and was it promptly ignored? We'll probably never know, due to the mysterious nature of Office Politics, but suffice to say, my solution is so ludicrously simple that it cannot be discounted that it wasn't already thought of.
And frankly, that's really all there is to it. I can understand if that upsets someone's delicate economic forecasts (I bet even suggesting tampering with the dilithium earning rates makes someone cringe at Cryptic), but you guys brought it upon yourselves here. I mean, did you developers honestly think you could offload an entire new fleet facility on us, have it cost as much as a Starbase to get going, and expect no backlash? C'mon guys. Come ON.
Anyways, that's the long and short of it, from someone who should probably have been in bed four hours ago. I hope it gives more than a few people something to think about.


For the record: Let it be known that I am still a huge fan of this game. I like playing it, and my enthusiasm for it has not diminished really over time. Season 7 is incredibly fun and very thought out, I think, despite some... glaring incongruities. I think the people at Cryptic are competent, that they mean incredibly well, and just want to make a fun and enjoyable , and very Trek, game. This can be observed by just the most casual observances (Guys, Club 47? Come ON, if you can't get how that's a great Trek reference, you are a bad fan).
But I also understand that their hands are tied on certain subjects, and that they do have orders that they have to follow, even if they may not like them. I understand things like having to adjust the gaming model to remain competitive, I understand all the details.
I also understand that they'll figure out a compromise. Something that neither side will be 100% on, sure. That's why it's compromise, instead of blatantly surrendering to demands/completely ignoring criticisms. But they'll figure something out.
Formerly GT-01. Runnin' a small lite-RP casual fleet called "The Voyagers"! Message me in-game at either Salen@GT01 or Xavok@GT01 if yer interested.
Here's my neat Idea's Thread.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,946
# 8
11-29-2012, 03:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugshu View Post
The same is true with Aelfwin and several others that are pounding these boards in polite nature.
Thanks for the vote of confidence Bug , but (sadly) I think I have left the "polite nature" behind me ... sometime way back when "someone" at Cryptic thought to split the Transwarp powers of the Excelsior (a ship ppl payed for) .
That was when something broke inside me in relation to what I would and would not say on these forums , and would and would not think about Cryptic .

Since then I have made it a point to not display my Fleet Logo in my sig (now I only put stuff I protest / support there) -- because I do not want the less then flattering things I say about Cryptic to come off as "coming from my Fleet" -- as my Fleet produces a podcast , and I do not wish to tarnish their reputation in the eyes of the Devs .

For now , the only sort of hope that has me moving forward is that I believe that Cryptic needed to create some sort of "basic gameplay" (grind) that they did not have in S.1-5 .
In S.1-5 you did not have to log in .
You could log in if you wanted to .
Now they have created an artificial "need" to log in -- to gather materials for your Starbase .

And now that they have that ... -- it is my feverent hope that they will get back to real content creation , story based content creation -- something that they more or less paused on .

If their problem was that they had ppl only logging in during the weekend when new FE's were presented , they have solved that problem now (too slowly -- in the ususal Cryptic style) .
NOW they have the "base" for the game .
It's time they started building on it again .
"We're not mad at Angry Birds, and we're not trying to defend the universe from Angry Birds. Although you might want to consider defending yourself from Angry Birds. If you aren't paying for the app, you aren't a customer, you're the product ."

- former CIA, NSA chief Michael Hayden -- your guide to F2P ...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,946
# 9
11-29-2012, 03:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by duaths1 View Post
- DOFF's - 15 minutes (average 2500 DILL earned)
Errr ... what missions are you running to get that much Dil ?
"We're not mad at Angry Birds, and we're not trying to defend the universe from Angry Birds. Although you might want to consider defending yourself from Angry Birds. If you aren't paying for the app, you aren't a customer, you're the product ."

- former CIA, NSA chief Michael Hayden -- your guide to F2P ...
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 271
# 10
11-29-2012, 03:32 AM
Not all the missions will give it to you okay.
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