Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 71
12-10-2012, 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naldoran View Post
....... As I explained a page or two back, if you have a high DPS escort, aggro mechanics are sufficiently skewed in favour of who's generating damage, that you'll get the attention of the NPCs. Threat control can help in some cases, but this is not WoW, where you can be confident that a competent 'tank' will be able to hold aggro.....
Whoa! Hold on there. What you say here about threat control is wrong. With 6 points invested into it you can practically guarantee to hold agro. The only times my cruiser can't hold agro with 6 ranks in threat control are when another ship with threat control beats me to it and are able to sustain higher DPS without blowing up.... this is incredibly rare but it does happen.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,030
# 72
12-10-2012, 02:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Whoa! Hold on there. What you say here about threat control is wrong. With 6 points invested into it you can practically guarantee to hold agro. The only times my cruiser can't hold agro with 6 ranks in threat control are when another ship with threat control beats me to it and are able to sustain higher DPS without blowing up.... this is incredibly rare but it does happen.
he is not all wrong though: the setup he posted is primarely a support setup, and it will never be able to actually draw and keep aggro with the 6 points he has against an escort. But thats no problem for him and his grp, since he lets the escorts tank and he supports them with heals, not primarely to heal them, but to skyrocket their resistance values with those heals.
So it is one approach to successfully playing a cruiser. And basically a training for PVP as a support cruiser. Although he is drawing aggro from unfocused targets, and i think his team kills one target at a time, making it an excellent teamplay build in my opnion.

Anyway, this is not WOW, where tanking is actually a well thoughtout mechanic, but it definately works as intended in STO. Thread control does it's job and is not "skewed", but if your cruiser lacks dmg, holding aggro is a problem...some cruiser lack the dmg abilitys, since they are primarely build for support. The only problem i really have with the skill "thread control" is that it is in the skilltree...that severely cuts your ship choices for that character. That cahracter is therefore limited to cruisers and other tank/support vessels. And that is simply stupid game design. (an aggro item...thread console... or ability would be way better)

What you say is exactly what i do myself in stfs...i go full dmg and aggro drawing, with only the absolute must have for survival. personally i find that better ofcourse, since the escorts i cover can throw their spare heals on me theoretically (TSS, HE) while they can sit still at 1km next to the target without getting hit.
I only heal myself, therefore my cruiser is unable to do any kind of support, appart from TSS and HE and Aux2SIF3, which i will need for myself all the time.

So conclusive: a dmg/tank oriented cruiser (more than 3 tactical abilitys) will most definately have no problems against an escort that has 0 points in thread control...if they have points in Thread control, whatever happens to them doesnt really concern me...once they die i get the aggro anyway.
A support cruiser will struggle keeping aggro on a target that is focused by an escort. But it doesn't matter, he has enough support powers to keep the escort alive.

personally i find the dmg/tank cruiser variation better for STFs, doesn't need a working team to be effective (aka PUG). I asume grp dps is higher too, when escorts can sit at the target without having to deal with the aggro.

On the other hand certain STFs need a working team anyway, then a support cruiser is nice to have.

PS: on the builds posted before, i think APdelta would work better than APbeta, for a support cruiser, or any cruiser that has thread control skilled.

PPS: basically wanted to explain that the way he said "aggro is broken" in sto was not wrong, but lacked some further explantion, but now i wrote a long and boring post about much more stuff. I underlined the sentence that actually is focused on the comment.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 12-10-2012 at 03:40 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,001
# 73
12-10-2012, 04:10 AM
Sorry, I can't contain myself any longer: thread =//= threat.
The only ones with thread control are the mods, around here.
It's an error that comes up a lot on these forums, and it bugs me. Sorry.

OT: in my experience, the threshold for holding aggro in a regular, pugged estf seems to be around 5k dps. If you can produce that, you'll end up drawing aggro in about 80% of the cases, even without speccing in threat control.

There seems to be little difference in captain or ship class too, btw; I draw massive aggro on my Negh'Var engi, my Wells fed scientist and my Kar'Fi pilots, and all can either tank the damage reasonably well and/or make other ships live longer if they get aggro (generally run HE, Aux2SIF, TSS and sometimes ES). None of them are specced in threat control.

Some skills do seem to produce more aggro than others, I find, but I could be wrong. Gravity Well, Tyken's Rift and Warp Plasma come to mind.

*shrug*

I think the system works, but if flying a "tank" cruiser, you will still need to pull your weight in terms of dps. The good news is that generally running full weapons power will provide enough output (either through power settings or EPtW).
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 74
12-10-2012, 04:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twam View Post
Sorry, I can't contain myself any longer: thread =//= threat.
The only ones with thread control are the mods, around here.
It's an error that comes up a lot on these forums, and it bugs me. Sorry.

OT: in my experience, the threshold for holding aggro in a regular, pugged estf seems to be around 5k dps. If you can produce that, you'll end up drawing aggro in about 80% of the cases, even without speccing in threat control.

There seems to be little difference in captain or ship class too, btw; I draw massive aggro on my Negh'Var engi, my Wells fed scientist and my Kar'Fi pilots, and all can either tank the damage reasonably well and/or make other ships live longer if they get aggro (generally run HE, Aux2SIF, TSS and sometimes ES). None of them are specced in threat control.

Some skills do seem to produce more aggro than others, I find, but I could be wrong. Gravity Well, Tyken's Rift and Warp Plasma come to mind.

*shrug*

I think the system works, but if flying a "tank" cruiser, you will still need to pull your weight in terms of dps. The good news is that generally running full weapons power will provide enough output (either through power settings or EPtW).
You aren't wrong. A lot of the higher tier sci skills do tend to generate a tremendous amount of threat, often to the point where I am in my qin heavy raptor doing a decloaking alpha strike on a tac cube, and I still can't draw it off the sci that is unloading every sci BOff power under the sun onto it. And I know for a fact that my raptor is doing a ton more DPS than that science ship (when your cannons are hitting for 8k, and critting for 15k with every round and your turrets are doing 2-3k per hit, I think that counts as out-dpsing the sci).

I also found that healing generates threat too. I will be sitting back healing an escort and doing good damage to a gateway/tac cube (not nearly to the level of an escort, but I don't expect to), and then out of the blue, the gate/cube will switch to me, over the escort who is averaging about 33-75% more damage than me. And what I had been doing the whole time was tossing heals at the escort, keeping it alive. It could be a bug, but apparently healing does cause you to generate threat.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,127
# 75
12-10-2012, 05:34 AM
Threat control is something I've been keeping my eye on for a while, it works pretty reliably but every once and a while you have to wonder what is going on.

We have a number of people in our groups that are quite skilled in the game, we often run combat log parsers to gain more information about combat.

As the highest dps ship in our fleet I can rarely get agro when a properly speced tank is playing. 6 points in threat control is enough to hold agro 90% of the time if you are a well built cruiser, which is what you want, let the escorts absorb 10%.

That said I am also in a very defensive escort, I could generate a lot more damage if I wanted to, but drawing agro and being dead doesn't do anything for the team or your DPS. A higher DPS escort could need to scale back and distribute their buffs more evenly.

I've also noticed I'm much less likely to pull agro when tactical fleet is running, giving the cruisers a damage boost and having their threat control multiplied by the damage boost makes pulling agro nearly impossible.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,926
# 76
12-10-2012, 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twam View Post
Sorry, I can't contain myself any longer: thread =//= threat.
The only ones with thread control are the mods, around here.
It's an error that comes up a lot on these forums, and it bugs me. Sorry.

OT: in my experience, the threshold for holding aggro in a regular, pugged estf seems to be around 5k dps. If you can produce that, you'll end up drawing aggro in about 80% of the cases, even without speccing in threat control.

There seems to be little difference in captain or ship class too, btw; I draw massive aggro on my Negh'Var engi, my Wells fed scientist and my Kar'Fi pilots, and all can either tank the damage reasonably well and/or make other ships live longer if they get aggro (generally run HE, Aux2SIF, TSS and sometimes ES). None of them are specced in threat control.

Some skills do seem to produce more aggro than others, I find, but I could be wrong. Gravity Well, Tyken's Rift and Warp Plasma come to mind.

*shrug*

I think the system works, but if flying a "tank" cruiser, you will still need to pull your weight in terms of dps. The good news is that generally running full weapons power will provide enough output (either through power settings or EPtW).
Yeah, you seem to be right.

The most important thing a tank has to do is generate thread. Then, once he's generated enough thread, he can pull out his [Zombie Split Beam Rifle Mk XII] [Acc]x5 [Dmg]x10 and kill his enemy!

Just make sure you don't run into anybody who's specced into thread control.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, lovely, I can't even requote the Douglas Adams quote I used to have here I WANT IT BACK!!!!
Dalo Lorn
DaloLorn, StarCraft 2 Roleplayer and proud of it.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 23
These two escort ships can tank decently enough.

The new Fleet Advanced MVAM because of tier 3 science skills you find someone to train TSS3 for in your fleet if your a Tac and also the higher hull and starting shield modifiers.

and the classic Heavy Escort Carrier: Because of Boff layout can run Aux to Structural 2. There use to be a problem with this ship's turn rate but with Tachyokinetic Converter this has been solved and can usually keep everything in line of sight with min effort.

These ships while cannot tank as well as cruisers are not what you would call glass cannons.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,047
# 78
12-20-2012, 04:55 PM
You forgot the patrol escort, that takes a lot of fire
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,080
# 79
12-20-2012, 05:34 PM
Basically any ship that can keep EPTS active the majority of the time, pack 3 armor consoles, and has two sci boff slots can tank nearly all content in the game. And if not, cross healing will allow them to.

Most people just don't realize the synergy of resists and regeneration, or the importance of a high shield power level to be perfectly honest. Shield power is just as strong defensively as weapon power is offensively.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 622
# 80
12-20-2012, 06:06 PM
Even the coded AI must follow a tactical progression. Attack the greatest threat. The only way this is measured for the AI is dps.
All cloaks should be canon.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:25 PM.