Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,150
# 21
12-04-2012, 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pantsmaster916 View Post
Question: Why are NPCs so dumb?

Answer: Because many players are just as dumb.

When's the last time you ran a PUG STF? Watched a rainbow boat try to do... anything, in a Borg Red Alert? Played in a PvP match against anything other than a pre-made of experienced players?

To address one point from the original post, though... Jem'Hadar WILL suicide-ram you. It doesn't seem to happen very frequently, but I've had it happen to me personally. And while it was a pretty neat "Oh crap!" moment, I could see players getting extremely ticked if they ALL tried it. After all, there's no real counter other than firing Brace For Impact and praying their crazy NPC damage scaling doesn't obliterate you.
For starters you missed the point of this entire thread, since the OP is referring to game mechanics over the stupidity of players. I do agree with you in regards to the "noobs" that play this game, and if they were to improve the AI, rest assure many of them would disappear or be forced to get educated.

Regarding Jem'Hadar suicide tactics, I've never experienced it - but then again they tend to die by my hands faster than a poor man going through his lottery winnings. If the tactic does exist, it will be neat to see.

You sir, are the first to encounter this

Last edited by stark2k; 12-04-2012 at 01:49 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14
# 22
12-04-2012, 01:47 AM
I've recently decided to give STO a shot after 3 years. I played at retail and left within the week, anyone who was around then knows why - the game was an absolute joke. Now however, it seems like a whole new game, im quite impressed.

Any who. Are you telling me there's NO npc's that use ANY different tactics/abilities? IE: During raids (or fleet actions here), there are no 'boss' style ships/add style NPC's that require certain tactics from a group of players to defeat? There's no team-work required to beat these 'end game' missions? Is every baddie in the game just a bunch of hit points and phasers?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,150
# 23
12-04-2012, 01:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtoxuk View Post
I've recently decided to give STO a shot after 3 years. I played at retail and left within the week, anyone who was around then knows why - the game was an absolute joke. Now however, it seems like a whole new game, im quite impressed.

Any who. Are you telling me there's NO npc's that use ANY different tactics/abilities? IE: During raids (or fleet actions here), there are no 'boss' style ships/add style NPC's that require certain tactics from a group of players to defeat? There's no team-work required to beat these 'end game' missions? Is every baddie in the game just a bunch of hit points and phasers?
You nailed it - same snake different skin, thats all

Miranda vs an armada of KDF cruisers & dreadnoughts - Guess who comes out on top?

Improvements are purely cosmetic, with the occasional bone tossed in there for good measure, mainly in the form of a new Grindfest area, or lockbox OP vessel or something of the sort.
Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14
# 24
12-04-2012, 02:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stark2k View Post
You nailed it - same snake different skin, thats all

Miranda vs an armada of KDF cruisers & dreadnoughts - Guess who comes out on top?

Improvements are purely cosmetic, with the occasional bone tossed in there for good measure, mainly in the form of a new Grindfest area, or lockbox OP vessel or something of the sort.
/siskofacepalm.

Sad.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 801
# 25
12-04-2012, 02:55 AM
It's not just the space combat AI that needs to be expanded but the whole ground AI and ground combat as well.

Ground Combat: The ground combat is pretty much run up to mob, sit there button bashing your phasers and whatever kit toys you have and the first one to loose all their health loses. Not saying the Ground combat and the AI for it needs to be revamped to like call of duty standards or anything, but some simple "duck and cover" (both for player and mob) would go a really long way to actually make the ground combat worth doing and enjoyable.

Space Combat: We have ramming speed for an ability, we've seen Jem'hedar do a kamikaze run into a galaxy class ship in DS9. Klingons love to cloak get the shot lined up just right and then decloak and start letting loose all weapons, where is that tactic? And I'm sorry but the Borg are these big bad guys that have the ability to adapt pretty quickly in about every aspect, so why are Borg cubes still pretty much just sitting there letting you pound on them while they shoot you? There's also 3 basic ship interiors, where are the borg beaming onto your ship and you having to switch to bridge view after a battle here and there to repel borg intruders? For the ships that only have a bridge they could just beam onto just the bridge.

that's the kind of dynamic AI that really needs to be looked at more so then just giving enemies the ability to use boff abilities.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 26
12-04-2012, 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
Why don't all higher level enemies do that? Timing torps right is one of the first things you learn in the game.
Ahem. May I direct you to PvP, especially Ker'rat? I assure you, you'll come across at least one BoP that will ambush you and attempt to overwhelm a shield facing and chew on the hull. Probably while you're trying to farm the Borg NPCs for item drops.

You want a challenge? Do PvP. Go to Ker'rat. Get into the queues, public or private. There isn't an NPC program in existence that can do better than a human at the helm, especially if that human knows what they're doing.

Otherwise, get used to hull-munching NPCs and dull-witted, predictable behavior from said NPCs.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 27
12-04-2012, 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vestereng View Post
I never saw a game with AI that wasn't absolutely pathetic.

To create an actual AI would be quite brilliant actually, we talking nobel prize or whatever
I'm sorry, but do you really want to face something like that? :
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/0...i-competition/

STO has enough players who are overwhelmed by the Plasma Torpspread and Tractor beam from the Deridex. And you want a better A.I.?


Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post

You want a challenge? Do PvP. Go to Ker'rat. Get into the queues, public or private. There isn't an NPC program in existence that can do better than a human at the helm, especially if that human knows what they're doing.

Otherwise, get used to hull-munching NPCs and dull-witted, predictable behavior from said NPCs.
Read this. http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/0...i-competition/

STO is a much more simple game than Starcraft. A team of 5 AI's build for STO would annihilate 100% of all PVP premade teams. Because compared to a SC Pro'Gamer even members from Sad Pantas, TSI etc are amateurs ;-)

I think no ones want something like that in STO xD But I would love to have more NSC who use Boff Powers like the Deridex.

A Tac Cube with Tac Team, TSS, EPTS would be harder but not more fun. BUT a Tac Cube with Tractor Beam followed by BO1 and HY 1 would be very interesting xD Or spheres who know how to proper use Evasive Maneuver and Eject Warp plasma. Or probes in KASE with TBR

Or random spawns in KASE instead of probes who don't shoot back. Switch between a probe and Borg Negh'Var/BoP/Vesta, spheres etc xD
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,588
# 28
12-04-2012, 05:21 AM
Well, adjusting or just having more variety in the builds is one thing. IMproving the actual decision-making is another.

For example, the probes in KASE are acting extremely dumb. They could be much safer vs player actions if they used a combination of a high engine power setting and evasive maneuvers, bridging the gap between their two gates in a very short time. Also, they could try to lure the players away from the gates, so that folllowing probes have an easier travel.

And it is not only that. It is also that the missions themselves are set up quite predictably. The 10% rule for ISE, for example, only works because the mission is guided by a script that sais "send reinfocement once a generator is lost", while it would certainly be much better to have some trigger that goes like "as soon as combat begins vs. the initial borg guard of the gates, reinforcement are called for and sent through the gate, arriving exactly 5 minutes and 23 seconds after the first shot. Should they be defeated (which means: As soon as they can reliably predict that they will be defeated), it takes another 4 minutes and 12 seconds to send new reinforcements, and that wave wil be larger than the previous one".

So as to emulate some kind of planning intelligence (bound to logistic limitations like travel times) behind the enemy's strategic actions, as opposed to a dull timed script.
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
https://youtu.be/VrJiU9BOEBI?t=53

Last edited by sophlogimo; 12-04-2012 at 05:27 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 29
12-04-2012, 06:28 AM
Well, my knowledge about programming is limited but I thought that AI in games "just" means more or less complex scripts.

And more complex scripts means more possibility's for bugs. And finding/fixing bugs gets more time consuming.

Perhaps we should try to get a question about improving NSC behavior in the next Ask Cryptic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 30
12-04-2012, 06:28 AM
It would be awesome, if you could design boss battles in the Foundry.

Give an NPC the attributes (hull,shields,skills) you want.

Give an NPC the rules, when to use it and on whom.

etc.
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