Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 887
# 131
12-10-2012, 03:24 PM
I would like an easy 50 marks each day too. Ever since they made it harder to complete the investigate officer reports daily, I now have to rely completely on the double fleet mark event and do fleet actions to get my marks.

A daily that takes ~30 mins to complete and offers 50 fleet marks wouldn't rock the boat too much. I just don't have the time or patience to do 3 "full-sized" foundry missions for fleet marks.

Have you seen some of the things on foundry that end up getting 4 or 5 stars? Digital novels that take 3 hours or more to read. If I was forced to do that I would kill myself by repeatedly bashing my face into my keyboard.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,628
# 132
12-10-2012, 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glassguitar View Post
Starbase rewards are not GAMEPLAY rewards, unless you consider the dumping of commodities into a mini-game interface to be gameplay, which I do not.
Except they are because you never get Fleet Marks for free, even the Officer of the Watch missions are gameplay.

Otherwise the Reputation system is not GAMEPLAY rewards either, despite the fact you need Marks to advance and Marks are gameplay rewards.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 397
# 133
12-10-2012, 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Except they are because you never get Fleet Marks for free, even the Officer of the Watch missions are gameplay.

Otherwise the Reputation system is not GAMEPLAY rewards either, despite the fact you need Marks to advance and Marks are gameplay rewards.
Your point well taken, but starbase rewards are specifically reward for GROUPS of people working together. Larger groups are able to generate more resources, but require more work to maintain. Therefore better rewards. The starbase rewards are rewards for being ina fleet specifically. Therefore, larger fleet = larger (faster) rewards potential. It's a choice you have to make. Once again, I personally choose to NOT be in a larger fleet and get my rewards a little slower, but enjoy the ride a lot more. The game does not require you to make the same choice. The only thing preventing you from being in a larger fleet and getting rewarded faster is yourself and the choices you make.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 397
# 134
12-10-2012, 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
A daily that takes ~30 mins to complete and offers 50 fleet marks wouldn't rock the boat too much. I just don't have the time or patience to do 3 "full-sized" foundry missions for fleet marks.
Colony invasion takes 15 minutes tops if you bork it the whole way and gives @20 marks. Same with Fleet Alert. Do them during rep event and you have your 50 marks in thirty minutes. Cooldown is 30 minutes so you could literally cycle those two Fleet Mark missions endlessly. I have done exactly that in order to help complete a project. What we need is MORE Fleet Mark missions, MORE STF mission and MORE Romulan Rep Missions so we can have more variety. We don't need quickies.

Myself, since I find repetitive grind to be the worst part of MMO gameplay, I would prefer that they make a few missions that are longer, more complicated, and with multiple possible paths and outcomes that offer bigger rewards. I would rather take part in an EPIC two hour long Fleet Mission that gave a 200 mark reward, than do 8 fifteen minute missions in a repeating cycle for the same marks.


The foundry issue is another issue entirely. I agree 100% that the reward is bleh for the Investigate Daily. I would rather the reward be structured so that the author would be given a choice of an item reward to assign to the mission. (reward value could be tied to number of objectives) and then award dilthium and YOUR CHOICE of marks on a per mission basis. This would allow foundry authors like myself to tie an interesting (and theme related) item reward to our missions, encouraging people to play them.

Wouldn't it be awesome if I could offer a MK XI Purple Anti Borg Rifle for beating my Borg Mission? Add to that 15 Marks and 480 Dilithium and it's a perfect reward structure for the foundry. I bet I would get more tips as well! LOL
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 352
# 135
12-10-2012, 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leyvin View Post
This is one of the key issues at fault there though, is it not?
Not meaning the fact that the Starbases are perfectly secure, but more it does mean something.

As the Fleet Starbase is capable of providing all of the same perks you get from the Major Starbases without the latency... not to mention the "Fleet Gear", most of which is simply better versions of what require normal drops.

What frankly pisses me off about STO is the sheer amount of mindless grind you have to do to earn anything. It isn't as if on my weekends off I can simply grind out all the Dilithium, Duty Officers, etc... that are required for projects, not to mention I have to rely heavily upon the Exchange (which desperately needs to be improved) for the majority of my Energy Credit income - so even that is hit'n'miss.

No instead everything is designed for people to be on absolutely every dayYou mean A Game Developer would Actually Design a System around the players That Actually Get on and Play the game? Developers Design Towards PLAYERS. Not Weekend Warriors. , like a damn job... you get on grind, set that days tasks going with the hope that by the end of the week your fleet might've scrapped enough together (this is particularly true of Duty Officer requirements as you can't simply BUY White (Common) officers like you can Green (Uncommon) NNOOOOO you have to sent away for a 2 Day recruitment thing or buy via Doff Packs) to complete 3 projects.
Apparently You have a Starbase and have never Been in it. I have Fed the starbase With the Fleet Credits it gives me Buy using the Personell Manager ON THE STARBASE to give me White up to currently BLUE Doffs For the cost of FLEET CREDITS. No Wait.. Instantly Given.
Everyone says "well just go on your other characters and grind on them too", but when you MUST use Alts daily (which is EXTRA grinding) just to afford projects ... there is a point where you have to seriously ask yourself.

IS THIS WORTH IT?! Is it worth Actually PLAYING a game YES. You sir are in the WRONG Game Style. ALL MMO's Are like This. This one lets you get VA in 3-4 days of play. Then you actually Have to Do other stuff for the Projects. Others you grind For weeks to months To max your Character out Ontop of doing Guild Activities, Raids, Wars, or Territory Construction and re-enforcement. If you think this Game is a GRIND.. I laugh hysterically At you and Recommend you Buy a Console. It is Built to those who need Quick Emotional Reinforcment and achievements.

The strong resounding answer that I personally hear back is, NO.
There is no damn point in any of this Starbase or Embassy crap.

I could invite non-fleet to them ... oh wow, I can do that with my damn cookie cutter bridge as well. Don't see the bloody point there either.

Could they be used in PvP? Well what's the point there, the game is so in-balanced in how it is designed that PvP is a waste of bloody time unless you've already got the top most gear available ... it isn't like EVE when people won't use a module cause they can lose it so everyone always uses the best damn equippment possible - which if you can't often not possible without mindless grinding them it ends up a slaughter.
Umm.. I am not sure if you actually Have ever Played Eve.. But.. You use the Best Gear you can Afford to Lose or the Best gear when it comes to Protecting the System from Take over. Maybe You were a Hi-Sec Warrior I don't Know. But when Your Defending Sov You Lose alot of ISK to Support the Greater Good.. Your Alliances Territory

So then perhaps PvE? Well no cause that is also frankly the most inbalanced thing that doesn't properly scale with levels because abilities frankly are OP in many cases; especially in the hands of the NPCs who tend to have 3-4 abilities that it can use at one time = Instant Pop for your Starship, regardless of how awesome the kit on-board makes it.
NPC's Are absolutely Horrible in this Game and basic MMO skills will easily Overtake all That are in the game. Only Issue is the occasional One hit Gate or Tac cube Kill. Otherwise This is Kindergarten NPC's. you Mentioned EVE.. Again.. If you played it.. The AI in this Game is Laughable Compared to Sleeper A.I. Or Null Ratting.

This often can happen so quickly you don't even SEE the graphics appear for what the hell just apparently hit you. So from your perspective you're alright, tanking the small arms fire then suddenly goodbye 60,000 eHP

Seriously, there is no cause & effect either. I mean I have nothing to fear just flying about, no need to worry about my ship being destroyed... the worse case scenario from failing a mission is a 20hr cooldown, even then it's only specific daily missions.

Honestly, we grind so we can grind some more just so we can grind some more.
Then let's say we do finally grind ourselves the damn damn few missions until we reach Tier 5 Starbases - well what then? You have the requisition stuff (that everything useful costs dilithium, Zen and time) so you've got to grind or actually pay just so you can well get back to grinding again cause you can "finally play the game" ... just to realise as was the case when the game was release THERE IS NOTHING MORE!

You know what I like about EVE, sure someone can blow up my StarbasePOS.. If your a serious EVE player; but there - doesn't matter if you have 200 members, or 5 members. Creating a Starbase Again you must be Talking about a POS.. Because You need to hold Sov in certain systems to have the Starbase.isn't a monumental undertaking5 players are not Holding SOV to hold Control of a starbase In Null... there is no grinding involved to achieve it Mining Arknor In Null Is Grinding.. Mining any ORE is Grinding, Industrial Uses you Grind for ORE then to make Supers Your Grinding to manufacture and time Gated based on your characters over all indy Skills For producing plates or whatever else you need. You also need a Decent Ship or Cloaked Hauler for half the Expensive Materials Since the ORCA nerf.(unless you want to grind)DED sites is Grinding, Level 4's or if you have access Level 5's Are Grinding in order to get the shiny ship you want. You spend MONTHS training To get into a Capital And over a year of Dedicated Training For a Titan Cap. The Average Level 5 Skill that counts is 30 days of WAIT before you can advance to the next Ship Style... Order Of getting Into Your Soon to be Captial...(New Training Tree coming to us In retribution with the Tiericide occuring) Frigate 5-> Destroyer 5 -> Cruiser 5 -> Battle Cruiser 5 -> Battleship 4 -> Capital ship finally. Current Skill Trains are 80+ Days and that is NOT having proper Skills To fit and Fly that is just into the ship.. And this is at Current before the New (longer) skill train kicks in. So while You do not have the Direct Equipment Dilithium Etc. You STILL have a Grind to Get ISK.. Or you can Pay 19.99 for a Plex.<~ item mall basically. Now That just Lets you FLY the ship. Lets Talk About Weapon Trains, Module Trains, Implant Sets, Getting into an Alliance To build you that Capital Ship.. Or Grinding to get Isk to Pay the Few billion for a Decent Fit Capital. But What if you don't want to get a Capital.. Capitals are for the ubber Rich Blobbers.. T3 Decent Fit.. 3 bil. Still Training for that and Now with the New Retribution changes you can't Eject from it if you are about to die. So Those TIME GATED ( yes Gated meaning not instant unlock) Skills that you waited to earn Now can be Lost. Clones Don't matter, Death in a t3 Causes SP Loss. and what you have at the end provides you with the means for additional income without having to deal with NPC Taxes or other Corporation/Alliances to make it happen.

It is one of the biggest expressions (aside from other things) in the game about your Corporation being Self-Reliant.

With STO, do you know the difference between a Tier 3 - Level 10 Fleet and a Tier 0 one?
E-peen waggling and the fact one clearly has nothing better to do. It means nothing except to those who have done it. You are an Eve Player - The Entire Game is Built Against having the Bigger E-Peen.

Frankly the way I see it all of these Level 50 "expansions to gameplay after max rank" stuff like Omega, Romulan, Starbase, Embassy and Crafting. All it is are ways for Cryptic/PWE to make more money because they're hoping that if the grind it too much people will pay so it goes quicker. No doubt it is working otherwise it would've been changed.

If you ask me though, this Free-to-Play Nickle'n'Dime crap just pisses me off. They want more people to play the game, make it good, make it fun and most importantly MAKE IT WORTH A SUBSCRIPTION.
In Eve If your Not Grinding For ISK, Your Plexxing For ISK.. While PAYING for a Sub, Unless you are like me and bringing in enough ISK to pay for plexxes For Multiple Accounts. One Does not simple Get anywhere In Eve With One Account. If you are Not Specialized In Eve.. You are a FAIL Pilot. PVP/Indy Hybrids Will Never get anywhere That counts In Eve. Nor will they Be able to either keep up with Pure Indy's Or Pure PVP's. From What you have Stated Tho I am guessing You are a Hi-Sec Carebear who has not really Branched out into more Indepth areas of Eve Online. I Fully Believe you have not Scratched the surface Of the Most Indepth Mentally challenging and Skill requiring Game. I am going to most Likely Guess a Caldari Player so you do not have to Deal with Transversal Maths Or maintaing Optimal Ranges or learning how to properly Tank a Vessel.
Proud Fleet Commander in Garfon's Renegades!
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
http://massivechaos.enjin.com/
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7
# 136
12-10-2012, 06:31 PM
Well what about implementing an optional Button which allows to limit the number of Fleet Members and scale the needed contributions for projects accordingly. To minimize exploitation of this the choice on how many members the fleet could have would be permanent ( or only changeable for an enormous amount of Dilithium or even better Zen ).

What do you think about this approach ?


Greetings Battery
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,628
# 137
12-10-2012, 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glassguitar View Post
Your point well taken, but starbase rewards are specifically reward for GROUPS of people working together.
Grouping have existed in STO before the fleet system, Fleet Actions are a example but also a example of how people dont work together due to the whole "lets reward a single player" mechanic.

STFs are also grouping.

Quote:
Larger groups are able to generate more resources, but require more work to maintain.
To start, there is no scale nor the system would be about punishing players from not playing as intended that is pretty one of the underlying problems with STO.

If "balancing the system" for 25 people was intended to push people into merging Fleets, it did not happen and the usual drought of content made many fleets going from <25 to >10.

I know we are not going to see eye to eye on this because I dont believe a Guild should go around with "Better That Everything!" type of gear and that was what Cryptic did, Top Gear should always be available to all players.

Also i suspect Cryptic is not really making much out of the Ship Modules because of similar decisions, simply put the whole system is something that simply fails because players dont want to be pushed to play as Cryptic wants us to do.

Quote:
The only thing preventing you from being in a larger fleet and getting rewarded faster is yourself and the choices you make.
This isnt about being "rewarded faster", this is about locking away top of the range gear behind a T5 door and say "grind your way into that" and THAT is what killing the small Fleets that reach T3, look at T4 requirements and just say "well ... **** that".

Also are you serious telling me I should grind my way into having the exact same footing on Gear selection because I happen to be "in the wrong sized fleet"?

This is the problem here, Cryptic decided to ditch solo players and then come up with the Romulan Reputation saying "hey! you can get your End Game gear here" like we are all supposed to be Plasma.

Also I am not being rewarded since I have to PAY those outrageous costs, the only reward is I am now "being allowed" to buy that gear but thats it, I am ALLOWED! not rewarded since I sure as hell not being "rewarded" by being allowed to pay my restaurant bill.

Edit:

Oh, if they sold Fleet Modules so we could skip Tiers and Upgrade projects I would buy then, in fact I would say this would be "problem solved".
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 138
12-10-2012, 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dariusmajere View Post
Small fleets are NOT supposed to be flying threw projects. This was by design and stated in multiple Q&A's before the launch of season 6. The problem with the small fleets and i had the same issue in my head was that we are trying to keep pace with the big boys. The starbases were not designed that way. A solid group of 50 active players dedicated towards starbase construction was supposed to average 7 months till tier 5. Smaller fleets were supposed to average a YEAR AND A HALF to TWO YEARS to hit tier 5. This was again by design stated by cryptic devs and DStahl. This information has been blatantly out there. Small fleets need to CALM DOWN and STOP trying to keep pace with the big boys out there. We are not supposed to be able to keep up with them. If you are a fleet of 3-5 players, you are not really a fleet.. Your a squad. Blatant truth. Fleets are large groups of people. Sorry if this stings a little. Cryptic has been changing requirements and drop rates to keep with this time frame for fleets. You read the changes in the patch notes as they come out. Alot of us smaller fleets are way above schedule. I know some small fleets unwrapping the shiny tier 4 starbases. Same pace as the big boys. It's called dedication and HARD WORK I know the work thing is a bad thing to state in games, but if all games were simple, quick and easy alot of us would be looking for a challenge somewhere else.
those estimates were before they reduced the amount of dilithium that can be earned quickly in the game and before they added the embassy and before they added the reputation system. those all suck down dilithium like no tomorrow as well leaving smaller fleets in even worse of a situation the larger fleets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 132
# 139
12-11-2012, 08:27 AM
I saw this happening as soon as they annouced fleet starbases were in the works. Fleet starbases and Cryptic won't admit this, but fleet starbases were designed in part to elimate smaller fleets and it is happening.

Small Fleets are disbanding, I have had a few friends fleet say their starbases have come to a complete stop and their a larger small fleet. The progression thru the system is kiling the small fleets and I really doubt Cryptic will do anything about it.

Fleet Marks and Dilithium is what you're going to need in the higher tiers and Cryptic isn't going to give out more Dilithium, as you can see by them fixing the Foundry Mission exploit.
12th-fleet.com
Join Date: Dec 2009
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 140
12-11-2012, 08:35 AM
My tiny fleet is still limping along, despite there only being two of us left now. Used to be maybe 6-8 of us, but everyone else bailed to join larger fleets. Then I was humming along at a decent pace until they killed the foundry "exploit." Now it's slowed to a crawl, but I've put too much effort into this POS to abandon it now.
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