Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,206
# 11
12-07-2012, 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Weird. I guess either I was bugged or they fixed it. But I will ask this: What range were you from your target, what was your target, and what was it's status (aka shields etc), or was this just based off of the DPS shown on the weapons, or was this based on actual hits on your target?
No target is needed -- this data was taken right outside ESD mousing over the weapon icon on the HUD. I simply recorded the projected DPS numbers at 125 weapon power based on how many tactical consoles were present. Other factors like target distance, armor, speed, weapon skill, etc. do influence final damage numbers but are not relevant to testing for tactical console diminishing returns (i.e., they play no role in determining how many consoles are present).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
# 12
12-07-2012, 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanover2 View Post
The same flat bonus applied to a total that increases with every step is a lesser percentage of increas every time.
No it isn't. Well, not *really*. You're looking for a compound increase, but the game isn't doing that. 4x tac consoles of the same type will apply 4x their damage increase as a static bonus.


Which is to say that it works like this:


(AB)+C, where C is your base damage, A is the combined console percentage increase you have, and B is the base damage of a weapon of that type. Thus, one to five consoles will calculate their value and *then* add it to the base damage.

Thus: ([total percentage of damage increase] x [base damage for a weapon of that type]) x [your actual base damage]



The way people *expect* it to work however, is like this:


([percentage of increase for console 1] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = A

([percentage of increase for console 2] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = B

([percentage of increase for console 3] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = C

([percentage of increase for console 4] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = D


And thus, A+B+C+D would be your outcome, with each console taking the total damage output of the weapon with all previous modifiers, including console boosts to calculate the new total.





Which, to be completely honest would be far and away so ridiculous that you'd never need to run any non-tac consoles because you'd just die the moment an escort so much as ****s in your general direction.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,123
# 13
12-07-2012, 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanover2 View Post
The same flat bonus applied to a total that increases with every step is a lesser percentage of increas every time.
If I recall, power levels do not affect the consoles boost.

Set your power levels to 50, which is supposed to be 100% of the listed damage on the weapon, and the increase will probably be more noticeable.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,206
# 14
12-07-2012, 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanover2 View Post
The same flat bonus applied to a total that increases with every step is a lesser percentage of increas every time.
If you're saying that console benefits get less as more consoles are added, then the answer is yes for resistance-bonus consoles, but no for tactical damage bonus consoles (the latter have already been shown to to have a linear damage progression as more consoles are added).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 779
# 15
12-07-2012, 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shar487a View Post
If you're saying that console benefits get less as more consoles are added, then the answer is yes for resistance-bonus consoles, but no for tactical damage bonus consoles (the latter have already been shown to to have a linear damage progression as more consoles are added).
Benefits for resistance consoles do not get less for additional consoles. The percentage reduced is smaller each time, but that's not the same thing.

Stacking resist consoles will increase your time to live, which is not the same as increasing your total % resistance.

With resist consoles, while the amount of percentage bonus decreases, the curve flattens out, the benefit of helping you survive longer is the same for each additional console you use, unless you're hitting the 75% limit because it's increasing your time to live by the same amount.

This is because percentage resistance isn't linear, but exponential.

If you have 1000 hull points, for the sake of example, and you have 0% resistance, and someone shoots you with a weapon that does 100 damage each second, you will die in 10 seconds. If you add a +50 resist console (note: all numbers arbitrarily made up here for this example, +50 resist probably doesn't give exactly 20% resist from 0%) and it adds 20% resistance, then you would instead take 80 damage each second, meaning it would take 12.5 seconds for you to die.

If you added another +50 console, you don't go to 40% resistance though (which would mean you die in 16.66 seconds). Instead, you would go to 33.33% resistance. So that sounds like diminishing returns, right? Except each console still increases the time you have to live by 2.5 seconds each.

If you were to add a 3rd console of the same type, your resists would only go to 42.85% resist, but again, it's still adding 2.5 seconds to your time to live.

So even though the your resistance percentage point doesn't go up as much when you add more points, it will still increase your time to live by the same amount unless you're hitting the cap.

So just as adding a tactical console may increase your damage by +82 each time, a resistance console that lets you live 2 seconds longer against a certain enemy will add another 2 seconds more with each one you add.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,206
# 16
12-07-2012, 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangolight View Post
Benefits for resistance consoles do not get less for additional consoles. The percentage reduced is smaller each time, but that's not the same thing.

Stacking resist consoles will increase your time to live, which is not the same as increasing your total % resistance.

With resist consoles, while the amount of percentage bonus decreases, the curve flattens out, the benefit of helping you survive longer is the same for each additional console you use, unless you're hitting the 75% limit because it's increasing your time to live by the same amount.

This is because percentage resistance isn't linear, but exponential.

If you have 1000 hull points, for the sake of example, and you have 0% resistance, and someone shoots you with a weapon that does 100 damage each second, you will die in 10 seconds. If you add a +50 resist console (note: all numbers arbitrarily made up here for this example, +50 resist probably doesn't give exactly 20% resist from 0%) and it adds 20% resistance, then you would instead take 80 damage each second, meaning it would take 12.5 seconds for you to die.

If you added another +50 console, you don't go to 40% resistance though (which would mean you die in 16.66 seconds). Instead, you would go to 33.33% resistance. So that sounds like diminishing returns, right? Except each console still increases the time you have to live by 2.5 seconds each.

If you were to add a 3rd console of the same type, your resists would only go to 42.85% resist, but again, it's still adding 2.5 seconds to your time to live.

So even though the your resistance percentage point doesn't go up as much when you add more points, it will still increase your time to live by the same amount unless you're hitting the cap.

So just as adding a tactical console may increase your damage by +82 each time, a resistance console that lets you live 2 seconds longer against a certain enemy will add another 2 seconds more with each one you add.
I don't know if I agree with the above, simply because "time to live" is relative to incoming damage quantity. Resist gain is still not linear relative to the number of resist consoles present. Either way, resist gear approach a "plateau" instead of rising exponentially since the latter implies a curve rising to infinity as opposed to approaching but never hitting the resist cap (70% if I remember correctly).

EDIT: The link below explains it well, and yes, there are diminishing returns with resist gear:

http://www.stowiki.org/Damage_resistance

Last edited by shar487a; 12-07-2012 at 08:55 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,280
# 17
12-08-2012, 03:36 AM
/bashes head against the wall.

1) Armor consoles do infact have a built in diminishing returns in the formula, that means that each console DOES NOT add the same amount of effective hit points as the first. Yes this is stupid especially considering how easy it is to spike hull resist into the heavens with boff abilities. Yes it is counter-intuitive. No it is not documented in the game. Yes it is stupid.

2) Power levels are a multiplier, just like critical hits and enemy resistance. Therefore they multiply everything except themselves.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 247
# 18
12-08-2012, 04:53 AM
Correct, only damage resist has diminishing returns so that players do not become 100% impervious to a certain damage type or if they are smart 60%-80% damage to ALL energy types. They would simply become godlike and no matter how much damage you produce they will simply not die.

They will be ablde to singlehandedly take out stf's if the elites were doing anywhere from 200-2k damage to them and nothing else.

Now, in the OLD set up everything had diminishing returns so that may be where most people are coming up confused by, but that is easily remedied by reading the patch upgrade infos.

I read this earlier in the quote where someone asked about energy levels. Yes energy levels overalll will determine your combat attack. if you are constantly dipping below 80% damage and in to the red line you will face crucial dim-re tat will not show in your weapons status in game but will show in your performance.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,280
# 19
12-08-2012, 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lasonio View Post
Correct, only damage resist has diminishing returns so that players do not become 100% impervious to a certain damage type or if they are smart 60%-80% damage to ALL energy types. They would simply become godlike and no matter how much damage you produce they will simply not die.

They will be ablde to singlehandedly take out stf's if the elites were doing anywhere from 200-2k damage to them and nothing else.

Now, in the OLD set up everything had diminishing returns so that may be where most people are coming up confused by, but that is easily remedied by reading the patch upgrade infos.

I read this earlier in the quote where someone asked about energy levels. Yes energy levels overalll will determine your combat attack. if you are constantly dipping below 80% damage and in to the red line you will face crucial dim-re tat will not show in your weapons status in game but will show in your performance.

No diminishing returns is not required to avoid players becoming godlike and immune to damage. Instead effective hit points could scale linearly and/or additively with a standard resist formula like most games use. At the same time though values would need to be rebalanced to make it work properly.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 779
# 20
12-09-2012, 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shar487a View Post
I don't know if I agree with the above, simply because "time to live" is relative to incoming damage quantity. Resist gain is still not linear relative to the number of resist consoles present. Either way, resist gear approach a "plateau" instead of rising exponentially since the latter implies a curve rising to infinity as opposed to approaching but never hitting the resist cap (70% if I remember correctly).

EDIT: The link below explains it well, and yes, there are diminishing returns with resist gear:

http://www.stowiki.org/Damage_resistance
That's not really contradictory to what I'm saying. As you stack damage resist, your total damage resistance percentage does go down, as STOwiki states, but that's because percentage resistances aren?t linear, they?re exponential:
  • If you have 0% resist and you add 1%, you reduce incoming damage by 1%
  • If you have 90% resist and you add 1%, you reduce incoming damage by 10%
  • If you have 99% resist and you add 1%, you reduce incoming damage by 100%
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