Go Back   Star Trek Online > Feedback > Klingon Fleetyards
Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,651
This is just an unscientific hypothesis, but I think it fits the facts better than "Klinks don't spend money":

What was the last Klink ship in the c-store before the fleet system?

yup, it was the Bortasque, a "Klingon reskin job" of the Odyssey, and there's your problem...

Below L50, KDF ships have a very defined 'feel'-they're relatively manueverable. They have handling.

even cRaptors, with the pivot issue, still have some handling and line up well with every OTHER battlecruiser in the KDF arsenal..except the Bortasque, which is, I suspect the only KDF BC that a Galaxy-X can out-perform without the STF gear.

and Klink players NOTICED this.

an Oddy handling like an Oddy handles like MOST of the Federation's cruisers, and it LOOKS like a ship out of Star Trek. The Bortas looks like an office block laid on its side, handles like a city bus with bad brakes, and really isn't that good a performer even WITH five tac consoles-the main gun is hard to get on target, has a long cooldown, and is slaved to a spaceframe that is only slightly tougher than an unbuffed exploration cruiser...


What are the ships we see in Fleetmark events, or like to see in STF teaming?

Yeah-NOT Bortas.

The personality that runs a character to 50 (even from 21) on the KDF side, devotes time and money and time tuning and tweaking that Klink toon, is used to and expects from its ships a certain level of performance...which Cryptic completely missed when they put the Bortasque pack on sale.

A "Klink" BC should have a good turn rate-even a flagship should have a good turn rate, good accelleration, and good braking characteristics. It should be able to bring it's main weapons to bear against opponents with more than the 'undead shuffle' of the typical Borg cube. It should be tougher than a Raptor or BoP, and it should have some dirty tricks it can pull that fed ships just...can't, with the traditional trade-offs in place (Lower hull, lower shield mod, basic cloaking), but more than that, it should LOOK "Klingon"-that is, it should have a definite sense of menace in how it's laid out (look at the Vor'cha for hints here-kind of a winged-serpent-fangs thing there, a forked 'head' that just advertises "I gots me some weapons and I Likes to use'em"), with forward cannons as main weapons, it should be able to bring them to bear on a target, followed by torpedoes for the finishing hits.

Battlecruisers should have the appeal of the big, early sixties Muscle Cars-they should give off a sense of brute power.

Raptors are like the muscled out late 60's "pony Cars"-lots of power lowered weight.

BoPs are basically Motorcycles-they turn (and should turn) like a ferret on meth, with a nasty bite.

There is no room there for an office-block, and so, Cryptic lost money-if a guy wants to drive a '63 Impala with a 409, 4/11 gear and 4 speed (or '69 Olds Cutlass 4-4-2) he's not going to be happy with a '76 Buick Electra luxury barge (automatic, 455 with highway gears, soft brakes and suspension that 'floats'...)

it's the old "Detroit argument"-we'll buy your vehicle, if we think it's any good, but you have to look at what we LIKE to drive once in a while, capisce?
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 2
12-09-2012, 04:25 AM
Well firstly, we don't know (as far as I'm aware) that it was the Bortasqu' they lost money on but if it was, I can't say I'm surprised.

After all, they gave the freebie one away and that may have been enough for many KDF players (even though the C-Store versions are superior).

But there's other contributing factors as to why some may find the Bortasqu' unappealing.

The turn rate for starters - that thing is shockingly slow to turn for a KDF ship. If it were a kick-ass carrier then maybe I'd be OK with it, but it's not - it's a Federation cruiser poorly disguised as a (very pretty) Klingon battle-cruiser.

The consoles are an issue too - most KDF C-Store ships are low-level but have interesting and unique consoles that you can buy and slot into whatever you want to fly - the Bortasqu' has only consoles that work in its variants giving players one less reason to buy it.

And lastly, the KDF has a pretty strong lineup of non-C-Store ships - the Vor'cha retrofit in my opinion is an outstanding ship for Tacs or Engineers (not so much for Sci) - my two KDF alts fly a K't'inga Retrofit (which really, is a slightly faster, prettier Vor'cha) and the Kar'fi (which is in a class all of its own) - I have a Peghqu' and a B'rel too but the K't'inga and the Kar'fi are just way more fun.

So much so in fact that I've bought other KDF ships just for equipment (Plasmonic Leech, Quad Disruptors, Bio-Neural Warhead) - the Bortasqu' offers me nothing over what I have and as such represents very poor value.

Fed-side, with the Odyssey it's a different story - it's a flagship Federation cruiser - it's the new 'Enterprise' - that in itself gives it a certain appeal to some - I have the free one but I never take it out of spacedock - it's always been a 'fail-whale' to me and I guess I see the Bortasqu' the same way.
Please join our peaceful protest to help make STO a better game
Proudly not contributing to PWE's bottom-line since October 2012
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 373
# 3
12-09-2012, 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
This is just an unscientific hypothesis, but I think it fits the facts better than "Klinks don't spend money":

What was the last Klink ship in the c-store before the fleet system?

yup, it was the Bortasque, a "Klingon reskin job" of the Odyssey, and there's your problem...

Below L50, KDF ships have a very defined 'feel'-they're relatively manueverable. They have handling.

even cRaptors, with the pivot issue, still have some handling and line up well with every OTHER battlecruiser in the KDF arsenal..except the Bortasque, which is, I suspect the only KDF BC that a Galaxy-X can out-perform without the STF gear.

and Klink players NOTICED this.

an Oddy handling like an Oddy handles like MOST of the Federation's cruisers, and it LOOKS like a ship out of Star Trek. The Bortas looks like an office block laid on its side, handles like a city bus with bad brakes, and really isn't that good a performer even WITH five tac consoles-the main gun is hard to get on target, has a long cooldown, and is slaved to a spaceframe that is only slightly tougher than an unbuffed exploration cruiser...


What are the ships we see in Fleetmark events, or like to see in STF teaming?

Yeah-NOT Bortas.

The personality that runs a character to 50 (even from 21) on the KDF side, devotes time and money and time tuning and tweaking that Klink toon, is used to and expects from its ships a certain level of performance...which Cryptic completely missed when they put the Bortasque pack on sale.

A "Klink" BC should have a good turn rate-even a flagship should have a good turn rate, good accelleration, and good braking characteristics. It should be able to bring it's main weapons to bear against opponents with more than the 'undead shuffle' of the typical Borg cube. It should be tougher than a Raptor or BoP, and it should have some dirty tricks it can pull that fed ships just...can't, with the traditional trade-offs in place (Lower hull, lower shield mod, basic cloaking), but more than that, it should LOOK "Klingon"-that is, it should have a definite sense of menace in how it's laid out (look at the Vor'cha for hints here-kind of a winged-serpent-fangs thing there, a forked 'head' that just advertises "I gots me some weapons and I Likes to use'em"), with forward cannons as main weapons, it should be able to bring them to bear on a target, followed by torpedoes for the finishing hits.

Battlecruisers should have the appeal of the big, early sixties Muscle Cars-they should give off a sense of brute power.

Raptors are like the muscled out late 60's "pony Cars"-lots of power lowered weight.

BoPs are basically Motorcycles-they turn (and should turn) like a ferret on meth, with a nasty bite.

There is no room there for an office-block, and so, Cryptic lost money-if a guy wants to drive a '63 Impala with a 409, 4/11 gear and 4 speed (or '69 Olds Cutlass 4-4-2) he's not going to be happy with a '76 Buick Electra luxury barge (automatic, 455 with highway gears, soft brakes and suspension that 'floats'...)

it's the old "Detroit argument"-we'll buy your vehicle, if we think it's any good, but you have to look at what we LIKE to drive once in a while, capisce?
funny you mention the 69 Oldds 442... I had one of these when I was in highschool,
Major Xi'Zzin
I.R.W. Raptor's Claw
Storm Eagle Class Warbird Fleet Ha'feh
I have never trusted humans, and I never will
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 47
# 4
12-09-2012, 06:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
This is just an unscientific hypothesis, but I think it fits the facts better than "Klinks don't spend money":

What was the last Klink ship in the c-store before the fleet system?

yup, it was the Bortasque, a "Klingon reskin job" of the Odyssey, and there's your problem...

Below L50, KDF ships have a very defined 'feel'-they're relatively manueverable. They have handling.

even cRaptors, with the pivot issue, still have some handling and line up well with every OTHER battlecruiser in the KDF arsenal..except the Bortasque, which is, I suspect the only KDF BC that a Galaxy-X can out-perform without the STF gear.

and Klink players NOTICED this.

an Oddy handling like an Oddy handles like MOST of the Federation's cruisers, and it LOOKS like a ship out of Star Trek. The Bortas looks like an office block laid on its side, handles like a city bus with bad brakes, and really isn't that good a performer even WITH five tac consoles-the main gun is hard to get on target, has a long cooldown, and is slaved to a spaceframe that is only slightly tougher than an unbuffed exploration cruiser...


What are the ships we see in Fleetmark events, or like to see in STF teaming?

Yeah-NOT Bortas.

The personality that runs a character to 50 (even from 21) on the KDF side, devotes time and money and time tuning and tweaking that Klink toon, is used to and expects from its ships a certain level of performance...which Cryptic completely missed when they put the Bortasque pack on sale.

A "Klink" BC should have a good turn rate-even a flagship should have a good turn rate, good accelleration, and good braking characteristics. It should be able to bring it's main weapons to bear against opponents with more than the 'undead shuffle' of the typical Borg cube. It should be tougher than a Raptor or BoP, and it should have some dirty tricks it can pull that fed ships just...can't, with the traditional trade-offs in place (Lower hull, lower shield mod, basic cloaking), but more than that, it should LOOK "Klingon"-that is, it should have a definite sense of menace in how it's laid out (look at the Vor'cha for hints here-kind of a winged-serpent-fangs thing there, a forked 'head' that just advertises "I gots me some weapons and I Likes to use'em"), with forward cannons as main weapons, it should be able to bring them to bear on a target, followed by torpedoes for the finishing hits.

Battlecruisers should have the appeal of the big, early sixties Muscle Cars-they should give off a sense of brute power.

Raptors are like the muscled out late 60's "pony Cars"-lots of power lowered weight.

BoPs are basically Motorcycles-they turn (and should turn) like a ferret on meth, with a nasty bite.

There is no room there for an office-block, and so, Cryptic lost money-if a guy wants to drive a '63 Impala with a 409, 4/11 gear and 4 speed (or '69 Olds Cutlass 4-4-2) he's not going to be happy with a '76 Buick Electra luxury barge (automatic, 455 with highway gears, soft brakes and suspension that 'floats'...)

it's the old "Detroit argument"-we'll buy your vehicle, if we think it's any good, but you have to look at what we LIKE to drive once in a while, capisce?
Personally the only problem i've ever had with the Bortasqu' is it's lack of ability to stop, i have a Vo'Quv on my other toon so im used to low turn rates. But considering it's inertia value is lower than either of the carriers which are both much larger ships makes me wonder if cryptic shot it in the knee for a reason. But despite this apparent flaw, i can bring a set of DHCs on target without too much of an effort, it all depends on how you build it, my Eng has a devastating broadside of beams in the Command version and my Tactical in the Tactical Bortasqu' (which is now my main ship to fly) can destroy most targets except the toughest of cruiser through simple tactics and abilities... well that plus the 4 Disruptor DHCs and the 4 Disruptor Turrets. If you set it up right it can outperform most cruisers in the attack role (even with it's half-dead cloak).
If you compare it to the Tor'Kaht, it has more hull, less shields, more Tactical Consoles and a Devastating autocannon and subspace snare to make escape difficult. So yes if it's ease of flying a ship by all means choose the Tor'Kaht but if you want to shock people with sheer firepower i prefer my Bortasqu'.
Well there's my two cents to offer, sorry for the long post
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,541
# 5
12-09-2012, 07:06 AM
no guys, the reason why the bortasq lost money is because of us KDF players. that is all.
Nothing to do with Cryptic.
We are at fault, not because a crappy ship was released.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,541
# 6
12-09-2012, 07:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benj2293 View Post
Personally the only problem i've ever had with the Bortasqu' is it's lack of ability to stop, i have a Vo'Quv on my other toon so im used to low turn rates. But considering it's inertia value is lower than either of the carriers which are both much larger ships makes me wonder if cryptic shot it in the knee for a reason. But despite this apparent flaw, i can bring a set of DHCs on target without too much of an effort, it all depends on how you build it, my Eng has a devastating broadside of beams in the Command version and my Tactical in the Tactical Bortasqu' (which is now my main ship to fly) can destroy most targets except the toughest of cruiser through simple tactics and abilities... well that plus the 4 Disruptor DHCs and the 4 Disruptor Turrets. If you set it up right it can outperform most cruisers in the attack role (even with it's half-dead cloak).
If you compare it to the Tor'Kaht, it has more hull, less shields, more Tactical Consoles and a Devastating autocannon and subspace snare to make escape difficult. So yes if it's ease of flying a ship by all means choose the Tor'Kaht but if you want to shock people with sheer firepower i prefer my Bortasqu'.
Well there's my two cents to offer, sorry for the long post
for me it was the "fly to these 3 ponts and scan " missions and the uselessness of the pet.

The oddy had the hazard skill that you can put on its pet and the oddy had chevron sep to do the scan missions.
Oddy is still the best ship on the fed side.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 47
# 7
12-09-2012, 07:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalpen View Post
for me it was the "fly to these 3 ponts and scan " missions and the uselessness of the pet.

The oddy had the hazard skill that you can put on its pet and the oddy had chevron sep to do the scan missions.
Oddy is still the best ship on the fed side.
I am in almost toal agreement on this, i love my Oddy on the fed side because of the separation and tough as hell shields, but i agree the bortasqu' falls somewhat short on the, as you called them, "fly to these three points and scan" objectives in most cases, unfortunately that's why i maneuver almost entirely in full impulse in those missions. However, what the odyssey gives up for its extra base turn rate and shields is a loss of dps typical for federation cruisers in game (possible exceptions are the Fleet Excelsior and Regent). Therefore the Bortasqu' is my KDF Tactical toons weapons of choice.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 940
# 8
12-09-2012, 07:34 AM
sad to think that the last kdf ship was the bort-boat

yikes


I tried it out on tribble, and my problems with it included:

visual astetic - its a floating brick in space that looks toothless, plus a similar gripe i have with the oddesy, it just looks like a fat-er interpretation of other predecesors, oddesy=fat sovy, bortas = chunky vorcha/neg

turn rate for cannons - in pve with careful planning, easy, anything else.. yeah.. |:

consoles - a bop pet, not that handy, snare alright but too much cooldown, autocannon cool.. but turn rate/cooldown nulify usefulness

cloak with sensor analysis - something screwy happens, you target someone you get the stacking bonus, untarget you go to red alert and lose cloak >.>' (might have been bug, havent bothered to check)

lacks the slipstream bonus as the oddesy (why..)

also cruisers generally are not my strength, although a few of my toons are currently cruisers to try and FORCE myself into using them ^^'
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 972
# 9
12-09-2012, 07:56 AM
i got the botasc and tryed it once realised that i just wasted a bucket load of cash on a crap ship. went back to my kar fi.

the reason i think they lost money on the bortac was its pure crap only a idiot would fly it.

as for not making money on other ships i dont bleive them for a second its just one reason one excuse as for why they are not providing for a faction.
i gave up hope long ago on them fixing or making ships for kdf it seems lockboxes are the only hope we got for any new good ships



Let's keep the word 'idiot' out of our opinions, okay? It tends to rile people up, even when you're using it in a general sense. ~Bluegeek

Last edited by bluegeek; 12-11-2012 at 11:43 AM. Reason: Friendly advice
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,541
# 10
12-09-2012, 08:46 AM
There are a few things cryptic could have done to fix the ship but instead they decided to just say that they lost money on the ship?
Are you guessing that cryptic set up the ship to fail so they wouldn't have to make any other?!??!?!??
Contraversyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:46 AM.