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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 143
# 31
12-09-2012, 09:52 PM
The Bortas and all of it's derivatives are just fine. They have a distinctly different playstyle to other klink ships, but they are not 'office buildings in space'.

They're not 'muscle cars' or 'motorcycles'. They're Main Battle Tanks.

They're meant to be at the tip of the spear, and just BULLDOZE through an enemy formation, with nothing being able to stop them. They're not meant to be subtle, or fast turning. They're meant to wade in, stomp their way through, nab anyone who tries to get away from them, and stomp back out.

Quit trying to fly it like it's a BoP or a Raptor. It's not, and it's a grave disservice to the ship to try such.

You're meant to find the biggest, baddest thing in the enemy formation, tractor and snare it down, and then proceed to pound it into itsy-bitsy pieces.

And the Oddy is the single worst Fed Cruiser that I know of, not the best. Even the Dread is better than it.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,249
# 32
12-09-2012, 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptrichardson12 View Post
The Bortas and all of it's derivatives are just fine. They have a distinctly different playstyle to other klink ships, but they are not 'office buildings in space'.

They're not 'muscle cars' or 'motorcycles'. They're Main Battle Tanks.

They're meant to be at the tip of the spear, and just BULLDOZE through an enemy formation, with nothing being able to stop them. They're not meant to be subtle, or fast turning. They're meant to wade in, stomp their way through, nab anyone who tries to get away from them, and stomp back out.

Quit trying to fly it like it's a BoP or a Raptor. It's not, and it's a grave disservice to the ship to try such.

You're meant to find the biggest, baddest thing in the enemy formation, tractor and snare it down, and then proceed to pound it into itsy-bitsy pieces.

And the Oddy is the single worst Fed Cruiser that I know of, not the best. Even the Dread is better than it.
I'll disagree with your MBT comparison-the Bort's not an MBT-MBT's have mobility. It's a WWII assault gun-without the range advantage or the ability to hide in ambush-basically an oversize StuG or Hetzer.

which would be fine, on a two dimensional battlefield (Ground) against ground bound opposition with a similar movement profile. in a three-dimensional environment where cover just doesn't exist, against enemies that CAN manuever, it's a cripple with a big gun.

and THAT is a problem if you're going to call it a "Flagship". it's not, it CAN'T 'Grab teh biggest guy and pound him into scrap", not with the cooldown on the one 'tractor' ability it gets if you bought the three-pack, because the "Biggest" guy isn't the most dangerous and that snare's not a perfect snare (nor does it last long enough to disembowel anything but the softest opposition). it fails because it's NOT SUITED FOR BATTLE.

The PvP battlefield is fluid. With Feds, that's not a serious defect-with KDF, because of how much of the faction's ability to generate incomes and the general culture therein going back to launch, that IS a major defect. More KDF players PvP than don't, as indicated by (among other things) the PvP ques-arenas rarely pop unless the Feds are running premade teams, but there's almost ALWAYS Klinks waiting for a game, so per the composition of the market (and in large part this IS due to Developer neglect of the Klingon faction), ships that are poor for PvP are failboats by default-even when they work fine for killing stationary cubes in CSE or doing Probe duty (only on one side, mind) in ISE/KASE.

The issue sits at the root of factional differences-maybe right next to it, the Bort lost money because once the initial blush of "It has FIVE tac consoles and this really big gun!!" wore off, word about how ti actually performs got around pretty fast.

it's fine for a fed cruiser, or if they'd made it a proper carrier like the Vo'Quv, but they did not do that-it has abilities that don't really work WITH the design, and a design that doesn't work WITH the doctrine or "Aesthetic" of the faction, and what's more, it is, item by item, minus the five tac consoles, inferior in every way to the Fed ship released the same cycle, while emulating how that ship handles-eliminating the key balancing item that KDF BC's have to make up for thinner hulls and weaker shielding.

When your main gun has a narrow firing arc (as most Klink BC's that rely on DHC/torp/turret combos or DBB/DHC/Torp/Turret combinations), that ability to get nose-on-target is a critical ability, lose it, and you're just a target burning buffs and BOFF powers to try and stay alive a few seconds longer.

Like an assault gun.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

I play KDF, because being a genocidal maniac works better with Klingons, than explaining it as a member of Starfleet.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 752
# 33
12-09-2012, 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalpen View Post
There are a few things cryptic could have done to fix the ship but instead they decided to just say that they lost money on the ship?
Are you guessing that cryptic set up the ship to fail so they wouldn't have to make any other?!??!?!??
Contraversyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!
Considering so many of the mixed messages concerning KDF over the last three years this would be my most likely guess..

For a Klingon wasship it doesn't feel very Klingon.. KDF is not about big, difficult to manuver warships..

the thing is a barge, not a battlecruiser, and yes, totally insane foolish to fly in PvP, if not downright dangerous.

As for the lack of sales.. ya know if they would just lower the damd prices to something more reasonable for gamers they might sell more then sufficient to make up the difference...

Paying $20 for a virtual starship is a bit much, and at 2000 zen thats $20.. I can spend less then that for a perfectly outstanding model kit of a trek ship, and if i want to pay a little more I know of several rapid prototyping shops that can make me a one off custom model of any starship I want. All I have to do is bring them the files out of any of the more popular 3d modeling apps and they'll whip it right out for me within 24 hours after they get the order.

lower the prices, and sell more Cryptic.. Do things to make the faction more apperlaing to play (ya know, like giving them more mission content, more uniform choices etc and you'll sell more KDF ships too.. because you'll have more customers interested in them..)

I really do hope that season 8 really will be the season of the KDF getting a full faction treatement.. I can't see to many KDF players that aren't LTM holders bothering any further with STO at that point if they don't...
Release 8.5 "STO The Next Generation"

Let the happy old bug stomping commence, along with refinement toward enhancing each factions play experience!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 34
12-10-2012, 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldkhemaraa View Post
Considering so many of the mixed messages concerning KDF over the last three years this would be my most likely guess..

For a Klingon wasship it doesn't feel very Klingon.. KDF is not about big, difficult to manuver warships..

the thing is a barge, not a battlecruiser, and yes, totally insane foolish to fly in PvP, if not downright dangerous.

As for the lack of sales.. ya know if they would just lower the damd prices to something more reasonable for gamers they might sell more then sufficient to make up the difference...

Paying $20 for a virtual starship is a bit much, and at 2000 zen thats $20.. I can spend less then that for a perfectly outstanding model kit of a trek ship, and if i want to pay a little more I know of several rapid prototyping shops that can make me a one off custom model of any starship I want. All I have to do is bring them the files out of any of the more popular 3d modeling apps and they'll whip it right out for me within 24 hours after they get the order.

lower the prices, and sell more Cryptic.. Do things to make the faction more apperlaing to play (ya know, like giving them more mission content, more uniform choices etc and you'll sell more KDF ships too.. because you'll have more customers interested in them..)

I really do hope that season 8 really will be the season of the KDF getting a full faction treatement.. I can't see to many KDF players that aren't LTM holders bothering any further with STO at that point if they don't...
I'll agree on the KDF not flying giant, oversized barges. About the biggest you see the KDF getting in ships is the Negh'var (I consider the Vo'quv to be a one-off, with a completely different purpose), and that's got a tolerable turnrate for a battlecruiser. That is the flagship of the KDF battlecruiser line. . .that, and the Vor'cha and all its variants. They combine maneuverability and firepower. They are superior to most Fed cruisers, as it should be. The Feddies get better escorts and science ships, so that's the tradeoff

That's part of the reason why I don't necessarily like the idea of the free Breen ship. That thing is almost a battlecruiser (it's just short a few k hitpoints and a bit in engineering boffslots), and you bet a lot of feddies will be flying it.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 35
12-10-2012, 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
I'll disagree with your MBT comparison-the Bort's not an MBT-MBT's have mobility. It's a WWII assault gun-without the range advantage or the ability to hide in ambush-basically an oversize StuG or Hetzer.

which would be fine, on a two dimensional battlefield (Ground) against ground bound opposition with a similar movement profile. in a three-dimensional environment where cover just doesn't exist, against enemies that CAN manuever, it's a cripple with a big gun.

and THAT is a problem if you're going to call it a "Flagship". it's not, it CAN'T 'Grab teh biggest guy and pound him into scrap", not with the cooldown on the one 'tractor' ability it gets if you bought the three-pack, because the "Biggest" guy isn't the most dangerous and that snare's not a perfect snare (nor does it last long enough to disembowel anything but the softest opposition). it fails because it's NOT SUITED FOR BATTLE.

The PvP battlefield is fluid. With Feds, that's not a serious defect-with KDF, because of how much of the faction's ability to generate incomes and the general culture therein going back to launch, that IS a major defect. More KDF players PvP than don't, as indicated by (among other things) the PvP ques-arenas rarely pop unless the Feds are running premade teams, but there's almost ALWAYS Klinks waiting for a game, so per the composition of the market (and in large part this IS due to Developer neglect of the Klingon faction), ships that are poor for PvP are failboats by default-even when they work fine for killing stationary cubes in CSE or doing Probe duty (only on one side, mind) in ISE/KASE.

The issue sits at the root of factional differences-maybe right next to it, the Bort lost money because once the initial blush of "It has FIVE tac consoles and this really big gun!!" wore off, word about how ti actually performs got around pretty fast.

it's fine for a fed cruiser, or if they'd made it a proper carrier like the Vo'Quv, but they did not do that-it has abilities that don't really work WITH the design, and a design that doesn't work WITH the doctrine or "Aesthetic" of the faction, and what's more, it is, item by item, minus the five tac consoles, inferior in every way to the Fed ship released the same cycle, while emulating how that ship handles-eliminating the key balancing item that KDF BC's have to make up for thinner hulls and weaker shielding.

When your main gun has a narrow firing arc (as most Klink BC's that rely on DHC/torp/turret combos or DBB/DHC/Torp/Turret combinations), that ability to get nose-on-target is a critical ability, lose it, and you're just a target burning buffs and BOFF powers to try and stay alive a few seconds longer.

Like an assault gun.
Agreed on the 'pinning enemies down' part. The Bortas'qu snare isn't that great, and it can't pin anything down better than some other ship (science ships would be better, due to the aux buff they inherently have). If you got an especially powerful immobilizing build set up, you might be able to use its strengths to good effect. Otherwise, it's a waste of money when you could buy a Tor'kaht that does almost as well DPS-wise but with much better maneuverability and combat prowess.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,686
# 36
12-10-2012, 03:37 AM
Its a shame really, I really like her...but just not worth buying in the shape she is in. I thought about buying her so many times. Just to hard to do it with how it is right now, personally I like the look but she out cruisers everything the feds have...I mean hell even the dread handles better than the Bortasqu.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 37
12-10-2012, 09:09 AM
Well, I am not going to lie...
I bought the ship without even looking at the specs. The Odessy and Bort came out together, so I purchased both on the spot. I said I would support Fed and KDF releases, so I put my money where my mouth was.

Then I took it out for a run around the block. I experimented a bit with it and the three different configurations. I came to the conclusion that the Feds got a better ship, and parked it where it sits today.
On my Klingon Engineer, the only ships worth flying was the Vet-ship and the Vor'Cha-R in my opinion.

If they released another ship tomorrow, I would buy it as well. Can me foolish, but one day I hope that Cryptic is going to support the KDF and I plan on encouraging them with my money until that day gets here.

Yeah, I am crazy like that...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 38
12-10-2012, 09:23 AM
Have not got one yet - still stuck in my B'rel - and sad about the Fleet version only in T5 shipyard, the only BC to get is the Fleet Vor'cha.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 39
12-10-2012, 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
I'll agree on the KDF not flying giant, oversized barges. About the biggest you see the KDF getting in ships is the Negh'var (I consider the Vo'quv to be a one-off, with a completely different purpose), and that's got a tolerable turnrate for a battlecruiser. That is the flagship of the KDF battlecruiser line. . .that, and the Vor'cha and all its variants. They combine maneuverability and firepower. They are superior to most Fed cruisers, as it should be. The Feddies get better escorts and science ships, so that's the tradeoff

That's part of the reason why I don't necessarily like the idea of the free Breen ship. That thing is almost a battlecruiser (it's just short a few k hitpoints and a bit in engineering boffslots), and you bet a lot of feddies will be flying it.
You're Correct the Breen ship will give the Feds the closest thing to a Klingon Battle Cruiser that they've got so far and I can see almost every Federation Tac and Eng flying one because it looks like it will be able to out perform any Cruiser that the Fed's currently have and will offer Tacs power and Hull points.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,145
# 40
12-10-2012, 12:26 PM
I'm not even sure what the last c-store ship for KDF was, but as I wouldn't be caught dead in those tanks from the c-store (bortask-whatever), and the rest are...not end game except the BoP (which isn't my cup of tea either).

The fleet ships are the first c-store (kinda) ships that I've seen since I started playing in march, and those are ALL overpriced because of the botched discount system cryptic setup for the upgrade modules. The ONLY ship I've purchased from the c-store was the fighter as it's the only one I can use.

They lost money because they didn't consider not every KDF player wants to fly a TANK or BoP.
KBF Lord MalaK
Awoken Dead

Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
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