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Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 41
12-12-2012, 07:44 AM
some people want to Fire on the ship for violation of the neutral zone
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,121
# 42
12-12-2012, 08:01 AM
As the test has never been fully explained/detailed, I'll just post my beliefs:

Klingons are under cloak. Do not reveal themselves until Fed ship crosses the border. Therefore, Sulu could not hail people he was not sure was there.

Once border crossed, horde of Klingons start firing. Minimum of 3, I think there was 9 in one or two "versions" of the test. To illustrate the combat odds of this, take your best Odyssey and solo a whole side of a fleet action, without respawning...

Remember, these are the TOS era Klingons, not the TNG Honor and Glory ones. Even if you could get one of them to listen, the only thing they want to hear is "I am the illustrious Captain so-and-so and I surrender the Federation's flagship to the Klingons in order to save 30 or so lives." Lives that most likely never were there because it's entirely possible that the Kobiyashi Maru is an empty hulk with sensor spoofers...

Therefore:

Part #1: Considering sheer number of hazards that need exploration by a slightly larger device than a probe, I will have created (by my computer programmer version of Scotty) an auto-pilot program that allows shuttles to be flown without a live pilot for simple maneuvers. Said creations will be made ready prior to the beginning of the mission(test).
Part #2: Send said shuttles over, unmanned, for KM's crew to beam into, then have shuttles recalled bringing them home, or for an extended tractor-beam tether to pull KM back into Fed space.
Part #3: If KDF decloaks to blow up shuttle(s), hail and advise of ongoing rescue efforts from the safety of Federation space. Also advise of now logged treaty violation and possibility of "ignoring" said violation if rescue is completed...
Part #4: Stay out of jamming range so that reports could be sent on a moment's notice...
Well, with the upgrade announcement leaving NX and Connie fans in the dust again, can we restart / revisit the T5 Connie and NX threads - since they will no longer be "truly" endgame ships... (after we get the T5 versions, it'll be time to see them added to the T5U upgrade charts too...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,863
# 43
12-12-2012, 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anazonda View Post
Why would your ship blow up? Very simple: Sustained fire by a overwhelming force = Death.
See... nothing to be confused about.

The test is designed to make the cadet fail... You can be 100% sure that the second you dropped your shields, a weapon would hit your nacelles, rendering warp inactive... The simulation would certainly have a function installed to prevent you from pulling of a "trick" as plain and obvious as the one you suggest.

Even with full shields in the beginning, without the ability to escape, you'd be torn to pieces in minutes.

It's not just about getting them off the ship, it's about saving them. If they beam to your ship, and you then blow up 5 mins later because you could not get away, you would not have saved anyone.
As mentioned above, the point of the test is not necessarily to pass the test, but to take the test, and be assessed on how you handle the situation and what you try to do. Why would I need warp drive while maneuvering around a drifting ship at sub-light? You're absolutely right that the simulation would no doubt counter any tactics used, but as above, that's not the point of the test...

How would you take the test? Sit in the command chair and say:
"I refuse to participate on the grounds that I may incinerate myself" ?

Here's what would happen. You would find yourself being hauled in front of the Academy commandant, and asked to explain why you've refused to take part in a crucial exam. You would probably be given the option to either re-take the test, or seriously consider your future with Starfleet, but chances are, your academic file would be marked 'not suitable for command', as happened to Worf when he compromised a mission to save Jadzia's life...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,863
# 44
12-12-2012, 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
I bet tom paris passed first time (His dad is an admiral and fixed the program)
Admiral Paris gave Tom a less than perfect grade on his survival course... He showed him no favortism for being his son...

Last edited by marcusdkane; 12-12-2012 at 09:32 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,656
# 45
12-12-2012, 09:46 AM
There's one bit probably missing from any attempt to solve the scenario: This isn't just you against a fixed challenge. There are instructors involved behind the scenes, and those instructors are trying to test you in an unwinnable scenario. If you come up with something the original design overlooked, the instructor will counter with insurmountable force. The brick wall moves to accommodate your refusal to hit it.


Try to go around? The Klingons just show up wherever you cross the border.
Technobabble out of the deflector array? Yeah, there was another one cloaked behind you.
Try to detect them through cloak? Too much interference from... somewhere.
Manage to fight your way there and come up with a way to beam the civilians off without lowering defenses? Well buddy, remember those gravitic mines the ship hit? You just hit one and now you're stuck, too.
Become a tactical savant and defeat all the Klingon ships? Watch helplessly as one last ship destroys the Kobayashi Maru moments before you come in transporter range even at maximum warp.

Basically, read any of the memoirs of the Apollo astronauts. They were given no-win simulations all the time, and they tried to come up with clever solutions to them, in some cases actually exploiting flaws in the simulator instead of actually doing their job. And every time they did, the controllers just pushed the screw-you-buddy button and a thruster stuck or the engine shut down prematurely or they landed but lost all the ascent stage fuel.

Last edited by hevach; 12-12-2012 at 09:56 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 466
# 46
12-12-2012, 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
As the test has never been fully explained/detailed, I'll just post my beliefs:

Klingons are under cloak. Do not reveal themselves until Fed ship crosses the border. Therefore, Sulu could not hail people he was not sure was there.

Once border crossed, horde of Klingons start firing. Minimum of 3, I think there was 9 in one or two "versions" of the test. To illustrate the combat odds of this, take your best Odyssey and solo a whole side of a fleet action, without respawning...

Remember, these are the TOS era Klingons, not the TNG Honor and Glory ones. Even if you could get one of them to listen, the only thing they want to hear is "I am the illustrious Captain so-and-so and I surrender the Federation's flagship to the Klingons in order to save 30 or so lives." Lives that most likely never were there because it's entirely possible that the Kobiyashi Maru is an empty hulk with sensor spoofers...

Therefore:

Part #1: Considering sheer number of hazards that need exploration by a slightly larger device than a probe, I will have created (by my computer programmer version of Scotty) an auto-pilot program that allows shuttles to be flown without a live pilot for simple maneuvers. Said creations will be made ready prior to the beginning of the mission(test).
Part #2: Send said shuttles over, unmanned, for KM's crew to beam into, then have shuttles recalled bringing them home, or for an extended tractor-beam tether to pull KM back into Fed space.
Part #3: If KDF decloaks to blow up shuttle(s), hail and advise of ongoing rescue efforts from the safety of Federation space. Also advise of now logged treaty violation and possibility of "ignoring" said violation if rescue is completed...
Part #4: Stay out of jamming range so that reports could be sent on a moment's notice...
There's a problem with your "solution". Jamming that the Klingons would use would also jam any possibility of remote piloting a shuttle craft. Also, a shuttle wouldn't fit the entirety of the Kobayashi Maru's crew (81 crew, 300 passengers in ST II).

[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent

Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,876
# 47
12-12-2012, 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
As the test has never been fully explained/detailed, I'll just post my beliefs:
Actually, in ST2:Wrath Of Khan, the scenario goes as follows:

You are on training along then neutural zone, when you recive a distress-call from the freighter with 381(ish) people onboard. It's stranded and disabled in the neutral zone.

If the Captain (cadett) chooses to hail starfleet, the reality will be that receiving a reply will take several hours.

Obviously I don't know how it was in TOS/TMP era, but in TNG era, all Starfleet ships are required to respond to distress-calls, so most starfleet captains would choose to enter the neutral zone to rescue the crew and passengers of the disabled ship, which is what Savik does in ST2.

Upon arriving at the KM the signal of the ship is lost (be it destroyed or a fake signal is unknown), several Klingon ships decloak immediately.

They dont reply to hails and start firing at you, in fact with such a force that your ship quickly takes critical damage, leaving extremely little time to make any decisions at all, much less take action of any kind, and the bridge crew dies fairly quick.

The simulation takes about 3 minutes.

That leaves very little time to do any of the solutions presented above, or in the novels (except for thoose where the Scenario was altered of cause)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6Gp2Ir7n9M

Edit: And actually, come to think of it, there may be a No-win scenario in TNG as well:

Remember that episode where Troi decides she want's to go Commander?

In that episode, she is presented with a core breach and tries several technical solutions, to prevent the ship from being destroyed, failing every time.

Finally it turns out that all she had to do was to send a person into deadly radiation to fix the problem from the inside, hence preventing total destruction...

Reminds you of spock anyone?

(why is that a no-win scenario? Well... how much of a winner would you feel if you had to tell someone to go kill themselves? Regardless of how many else it would save...)
My name may say "PWE member", but I will never be.
-NEVER Forget the Screwups and ignorance made towards the people who supported the game through 2011
Don't look silly, don't call it "Zen-Store" - Don't waste devs time, Post proper bug-reports - I don't like Gekos

Last edited by anazonda; 12-12-2012 at 12:53 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,863
# 48
12-12-2012, 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anazonda View Post
(why is that a no-win scenario? Well... how much of a winner would you feel if you had to tell someone to go kill themselves? Regardless of how many else it would save...)
The point is that a commanding officer must be emotionally capable of being able to give an order to a crew member (and possibly a good friend) which will be fatal to them if it will also save the lives of others. As Spock said, the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. (Please don't just quote Kirk's reversal of that, because Kirk didn't have any respect for the rules, let alone play by them... As someone mentioned above, after seeing his Kobyashi Maru results, he'd be getting a big red cross by his name, for anything above Redshirt Duty...)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,876
# 49
12-12-2012, 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
~snip
Not my point, in regards to that section.

I thought it was rather obvious and simple to see that I was theorizing that, that particular test, may be the TNG era variant of the Kobayashi Maru.

Must remember to make it simpler next time.
My name may say "PWE member", but I will never be.
-NEVER Forget the Screwups and ignorance made towards the people who supported the game through 2011
Don't look silly, don't call it "Zen-Store" - Don't waste devs time, Post proper bug-reports - I don't like Gekos
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,863
# 50
12-12-2012, 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anazonda View Post
Not my point, in regards to that section.

I thought it was rather obvious and simple to see that I was theorizing that, that particular test, may be the TNG era variant of the Kobayashi Maru.

Must remember to make it simpler next time.
Yes, there was the point about the test being a no win scenario, but the text which I made bold, read that you were asking why it was a no win scenario. And asking how much of 'a winner' someone would feel in that situation, regardless of how many it may save.. Not a case of 'making it simpler', but being mindful that sarcasm/ironic/rhetorical tones do not always translate into text as the author intends...

Last edited by marcusdkane; 12-12-2012 at 02:33 PM.
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