Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 466
# 1 Resizing of STO - Space
12-10-2012, 02:10 PM
Ok so we've all come to the conclusion that the Defiant is too large, DS9 is too small, and fighter craft are either impossible to see or too big (Vesta vs Runabout anyone?).

So I had a thought.

Why not just increase the size of the largest ships to make them larger than the smaller craft. The Sovereign is supposed to weigh in at nearly 700 meters. Yet the Defiant is nearly as big as her saucer section. So why not just upscale the size of the ships that are meant to be big to give the ships a more grand feel? Could you imagine if the Odyssey was increased by 2x the size?? She would finally deserve that 6 turn rate!

Thoughts?

[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent

Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 471
# 2
12-10-2012, 02:21 PM
i use to not like small ships because they were so hard to see. then i learned to zoom in and out.

the trade off is if the ship is too big your playing field shrinks when zooming in too close to increase the size of your ship.
http://startrek.44thfleet.com/
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 3
12-10-2012, 02:24 PM
There are a lot of things ingame that are scaled badly.

Bridges/ship interiors are too big/spacious. It's a starship. It's limited on space. The bridge shouldn't be a cathedral and corridors shouldn't be subway tunnels..

Several ships are scaled badly.

Akira should be nearly the length of an Excelsior. (464 meters)
Steamrunner should be roughly half the length of an Akira (240 meters)
Defiant should be 3/4 the length of a Steamrunner (~170 meters)
Nova should be about 25% larger in length then Defiant (~210 meters)
Intrepid should be about 40% larger in length then Steamrunner (~340 meters)

List goes on.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 466
# 4
12-10-2012, 02:27 PM
What they need is a Starship Art Initiative.

Step 1: Stop producing weak new ships.
Step 2: Fix the current ships. No new art needed, only tweaks are needed to make them the correct size and correct the details (Missing windows, etc).
Step 3: Profit

They could also do with a balance pass over every single ship. Rather than releasing 10 more ships with mediocre stats and shabby modeling, they should just fix what they have.

Some bridges should be that large, like the Odyssey I can see being massive. However, hallways should not be large enough to drive a Hummer H3 through.

[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent

Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 5
12-10-2012, 02:31 PM
Sometimes I wish these guys were as meticulous about the ingame models and scaling of said models as Wargaming was with World of Tanks.

The Steamrunner model, while nice, is so full of texture problems (and the impulse engines being in the wrong place, despite them being modeled in the right place..) that it's almost a joke. Not to mention it's twice as big as it should be. And it was a $25.00 ship...It should be flawless..

Some problems that really shouldn't exist on a $25.00 ship.

1) Scaling problems.
2) Modeling errors
3) Texture problems:
Phaser strips differentiating in width
No floodlights on name/registry
Lifeboats overlapping equipment panels
Impulse engine textures not where they're modeled
"Aztecking" doesn't line up
Windows are really funky
No shuttlebay (Should be on the front of the saucer)
4) Camera rotates too far aft
5) Ship "Center of mass" pivot point too far aft

There's just no reason something you pay for should be this full of problems when the actual ILM renders are public and readily available..

Last edited by wunjee; 12-10-2012 at 02:38 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,457
# 6
12-10-2012, 02:36 PM
I'm also of the mindset that we have a very poorly scaled game. Its thematic, I get that. But its quite subjective to the designer's point of view. This creates a problem because we're mostly dealing with iconic ships here, not generic assets.

Tumerboy/Taco has spoken about similar issues (concerning scale of space assets etc) before. Basically, if I am recalling it correctly, things get harder to code the larger they are. Specifically their accurate placement. Now I'm sure there are some similarities for ships in that regard, because frankly, in 2012, it just doesn't fly that they can not be adequately rendered at significantly diverse scales (EVE) and that people will significantly lose out by not being able to see shuttles zip around them while in a huge Sovereign (hey! thats why the game has UI brackets right?)
nynik | Join Date: Dec 2009
<Dev> Oaks@dstahl: *checks for CBS listening devices in the office*
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 7
12-10-2012, 02:37 PM
If things get harder to code the bigger they are, scale them down.

Use the largest ships (Odyssey and Bortas) as templates and scale everything to them.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 466
# 8
12-10-2012, 02:46 PM
Yes but then you get Defiants the size of runabouts and can't see anything.

Check the Foundry one day, there's an asset in there called "Galaxy XLG" or something of the sort. It's literally a giant galaxy class, the size of a tactical cube. It works completely fine. I don't know why everything else can't. Unless they don't want things made too large and make their mistakes so freakin obvious.

[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent

Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 9
12-10-2012, 02:54 PM
Probably laziness. I was a hardpointer on Bridge Commander models for a long, long time, and hardpointing large models could be a pain. Especially accurately. But it's far from impossible. I correctly hardpointed a properly scaled Executor-class Star Destroyer. If I could do that, they could properly scale these ships.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,747
# 10
12-10-2012, 03:10 PM
STO's starships (with the exception of the Defiant due to DS9 never consistently representing its size) are in correct scale to each other as per the most official measurements available.

Similarly, STO's small craft, shuttles and such, are similarly in scale to each other.

However, for playability purposes, small craft and starships are not in scale to each other. This is to aid in visibility. Fighter craft in this game are already terribly small and hard to spot; if you scaled up the bigger ships for accuracy, they'd be nearly impossible to see.

In short,
  1. The ships are properly scaled already, where playability allows.
  2. This is a bad idea.
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