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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,473
# 341
12-19-2012, 09:58 PM
It's kind of difficult for me to blame them, really. Doesn't mean that I no longer run CSE/KASE since S7 - just ISE, but I can definitely see where they're coming from...

A new player used to be able to Borg up in a night running regular STFs. During that time, they'd actually learn more about the STFs (cause hopefully they had at least read about them first) and start to get an idea about them. They'd have an idea of what worked and didn't work - whether they were making the mistake or somebody else was.

Once they had Borg'd up, they might MACO/Omega up in regulars if that was good enough for them or they might then head over to ESTFs.

Now though? Since S7?

500-600+ Omega Marks per piece. 14-16k+ Dilithium per piece.

As an example of how they get that:

They could run IS - get 15 + 4-5 for the optional. ~20 Omega Marks.
They could run ISE - get 60 + 15+ for the optional. ~75+ Omega Marks.

Run them during the rep thing, and you can make 110-130+ Omega Marks from an ISE.

They're basically going to say "screw this, I'm going ELITE!"... they don't want to run 3+ STFs for every ESTF.

So they're showing up either undergeared, lacking knowledge, etc, etc, etc - they're just unprepared for it. Heck, I said that in my Lol thread after S7 started - that the new players were not going to want to grind out those Marks in regular STFs.

They should have left it so they could get the Borg Mk X from regular STFs - so they would have at least run them before showing up in ESTFs with their you can run almost anything you want to level builds...

...can't really fault them - sure, they could take some initiative...but so too could have Cryptic.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 342
12-19-2012, 11:12 PM
ISE and KASE should both be puggable in common gear and no p2w ship and no doffs if the boffs are layed out decently and the ship piloted decently. No they won't do the same dps nor be able to absorb the same amount of damage, but they should be able to do more than enough to complete the mission.

CSE and the Hive Elite need a little more teamwork and in general is more of pain than it's worth since you really only need to run 1 or 2 STFs to keep up w/the rep system. Quite frankly I wish it was that way for the romulan marks which seems to be much more time consuming for me.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 865
# 343
12-19-2012, 11:40 PM
Remember when they introduced dilithium to "reduce the number of currencies in-game"? I wish that line of thought were still in use by the devs...
Quote:
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ RIYOTT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ: Have you wondered that maybe all the things they've added to the gaem lately is to literally make PvP unbearable? Because everything they've added has no use in PvE at all; we know the big boss hates 14 yo min maxers
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 344
12-20-2012, 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonfl View Post
Remember when they introduced dilithium to "reduce the number of currencies in-game"? I wish that line of thought were still in use by the devs...
I really don't understand the purpose of having Fleetm-, Omega- and Romulanmarks. Just having one which you could use for in all system would be much more easier to use

Quote:
Originally Posted by arxial View Post

WHY? Before PvP nerd rage does into effect, let me ask this: how many of you have actually completed a Hive Onslaught? Any takers? No? All right. Since some of you posters DON'T play it above Normal, you do not understand how worthwhile it is to even have STA and RSA. They were designed and implemented to aid in the now 1st generation Borg STF's. Regardless of WHAT you pick T4, you will be surviving longer, doing more damage, or both.

LOL? Elite STF are so easy that nobody needs passives or MKXII purple gear.
YOU need it because you just suck :-P
That's not a problem for me but please, stay out of ESTF :-P

But not that the casual PVP'er would be better :-P
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,216
# 345
12-20-2012, 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxial View Post
This entire thread has made me realize why I love PvP so little, and why I love killing PvP'ers who scream P2W at me with the Omega4/New Romulus4 combo. It does NOT make me invincible, nor does it allow me to completely isolate a target and become unstoppable because they aren't doing damage to me very often. It means that IF they are smart, they will turtle up and call on others for aid. Now, because I don't run a damage spreading ability, SV/BFaW/Torp spreads, I'm still fair game for anyone I'm not placating, if and when it does proc.

That being said, yes, Omega4 is a bit bugged, going into effect every 2-3 seconds, where it should only be every 6 seconds. However, the magnitude of Omega4's shield regen should not be changed. WHY? Before PvP nerd rage does into effect, let me ask this: how many of you have actually completed a Hive Onslaught? Any takers? No? All right. Since some of you posters DON'T play it above Normal, you do not understand how worthwhile it is to even have STA and RSA. They were designed and implemented to aid in the now 1st generation Borg STF's. Regardless of WHAT you pick T4, you will be surviving longer, doing more damage, or both.

For those who TL;DR, if you don't make an effort to GAIN these abilities, what 'responsibility' do you have to actually COMPLAIN about them, if you make no effort to acquire them? This game is about grinding to get. cool. stuff. This is not easymode WoW or whatever other cheese game you play when you're not on STO.
Y'know what? I could start with insults, they'd be easy because they'd likely be true...but let's keep this above that.

I don't bother with "Normal" STF unless I'm teamed with a new player who's trying it out, I DO play "Elite" STF's fairly frequently-in fact, I PUG Elites frequently (up to two or three a night when the PvP ques are slow-which they are on most weeknights!)

My FIRST Hive Onslaught was run in a L40 Hegh'ta armed with pre-S7 KHG 3 piece set..which you can not buy on the exchange, and could not get prior to S7 except by running EVERY SINGLE ELITE space mission, with a cap whose KHG ground set was MkXI because I never got better than a blue drop on the ground missions.

it was on TRIBBLE, by the way. I was impressed-the mission actually required more than lots of DPS to finish-you actually NEEDED a balanced team including healers and sci-spam.

IOW, I played it and was impressed, before it got hit with the Pve whiner's nerfbat.

and it was on "Elite" because "Normal" is normally not worth the time to play through unless one is showing a new player around the map.

Further, the BEST teams in ESTFs are, quite simply, NOT the Pve hero crowd kirking it up-it's either PvPers (because they know how to work in a team) or KDF (same reason).

I've played it enough to have this as a solid observation going back to before S6 introduced the Starbase system, when the 2800 was new (and so was I).

When I go into a Pug and see fleet names like "Sad Pandas" or "Turkish RP Heroes" or "The Spanish Inquisition" on fedships, I know I'm not going to be drawing ALL the damn aggro from the cubes, assimilated raptors, assimilated BoPs, and Assimilated Negh'vars in CSE, and that I have a good chance of not using up a 20 pack of repair parts in Hive Onslaught (elite), when I see "S.O.B" or any of the Klink fleets represented, I know the mission is likewise more than even odds of going smoothly.

On the other hand, when I do NOT see PvP'ers in Fedships, when I see three Oddys with red stripe-and-piping, or a couple Defiants with an Armitage and no fleet identiifier over the names that I recognize, I know I'm in for a tough run-one where the Borg will want to dance with me instead of them.

Capische? a lot of PvE types think people should have to run the dead-easy "Normals" first-I disagree. I think before you should be allowed to run Elite STF's, you should have to match a certain number of hours and kills in PvP-to prove you know how your ship works, how to work in a team, and how to use what you have.

A PvP'er in a Ki'Tang or (fedside) Miranda is going to be more use in Cure Space Elite (or whatever you want to call it now) than a PVE HERO flying a fully trimmed out max-rep Steamrunner, Fleet Defiant Retrofit, Excelsior R, Tor'Khat, Oddy, or Vesta.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

I play KDF, because being a genocidal maniac works better with Klingons, than explaining it as a member of Starfleet.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 89
# 346
12-20-2012, 02:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post

Capische? a lot of PvE types think people should have to run the dead-easy "Normals" first-I disagree. I think before you should be allowed to run Elite STF's, you should have to match a certain number of hours and kills in PvP-to prove you know how your ship works, how to work in a team, and how to use what you have.
Naw, dont thinks so. I dont feel I should have to pvp for 'a certain number of hours' to do pve content. On top of that I do not want to have to do that on every character I bring up, its pointless. Oh by the way, in case your forgot PVP is BORKED as hell, its not going to help you slay dragons anymore than sweeping the floor of a ferangi lobe den is going to teach you how to pvp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
A PvP'er in a Ki'Tang or (fedside) Miranda is going to be more use in Cure Space Elite (or whatever you want to call it now) than a PVE HERO flying a fully trimmed out max-rep Steamrunner, Fleet Defiant Retrofit, Excelsior R, Tor'Khat, Oddy, or Vesta.
That is just not true. What helps is people who have done it before, not people popping beam boat Defiants in pvp, and the only way they can do that is if they are REQUIRED to run the lower ones.

So yes, make them run the normal ones a few times, 5-10 times should be enough to get a general hang of things, hell make it an accolade and attach some shiny thing to it so they will WANT to run it. If they do not want to run the lower level ones to at least get a basic idea of what is going on, then screw them. I hate to say it but doing a normal stf 5-10 times really isnt that hard (most elites really are not that hard either, seen a few guys go in with white MK XI gear and tear it up) and if they can not at least do that then they really didnt want the gear that badly.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 347
12-20-2012, 03:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
bla bla bla
That is just bull****. Just because you are doing PVP doesn't mean you are a good player

A good player will shine in any content. Be it PVE or PvP.


Ok, STO doesn't have any PVE content like Onyxia or Molten Core xD Damn, even normal leveling in WoW is harder than a ESTF xD

And thats why so many players suck in STO. And not because PvP players are so l33t imbaz warrioz -.-
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 102
# 348
12-20-2012, 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxial View Post
That being said, yes, Omega4 is a bit bugged, going into effect every 2-3 seconds, where it should only be every 6 seconds. However, the magnitude of Omega4's shield regen should not be changed. WHY? Before PvP nerd rage does into effect, let me ask this: how many of you have actually completed a Hive Onslaught? Any takers? No? All right. Since some of you posters DON'T play it above Normal, you do not understand how worthwhile it is to even have STA and RSA. They were designed and implemented to aid in the now 1st generation Borg STF's. Regardless of WHAT you pick T4, you will be surviving longer, doing more damage, or both.
You start by trying to minimize how broken Omega T4 regen is when everyone else recognizing it is ticking every second (not 2-3) and then make completely outlandish claims that PvPers haven't tried Hive Onslaught Elite, or any elite STFs for that matter. If you actually go back and look at the threads crying for nerfs to Hive Onslaught Elite you would notice that a lot of the people opposed to nerfing hive were PvPers, and some of us even suggested that maybe it should be made a little more challenging. So not only have us PvPers tried Hive Elite, but we have found the supposed challenge to be lacking, and this was all prior to any of the higher tier rep system unlocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Capische? a lot of PvE types think people should have to run the dead-easy "Normals" first-I disagree. I think before you should be allowed to run Elite STF's, you should have to match a certain number of hours and kills in PvP-to prove you know how your ship works, how to work in a team, and how to use what you have.
As much as I would like to see more people PvPing, I don't think this would be helpful at all, for either PvP or for Elite STFs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luxchristian View Post
A good player will shine in any content. Be it PVE or PvP.
Basically this, though given the choice of getting a random team of PvPers or non-PvPers for an STF, I'd take the team of PvPers any day.
_________________________
S.O.B | -Show Me Your Critz-
Svarog | Veles | et al.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,216
# 349
12-20-2012, 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luxchristian View Post
That is just bull****. Just because you are doing PVP doesn't mean you are a good player

A good player will shine in any content. Be it PVE or PvP.


Ok, STO doesn't have any PVE content like Onyxia or Molten Core xD Damn, even normal leveling in WoW is harder than a ESTF xD

And thats why so many players suck in STO. And not because PvP players are so l33t imbaz warrioz -.-
All I'm saying is, it's relative-one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind-PvP'ers tend to be less hamstrung by bad assumptions than most players-therefore, more successful at completing the relatively dead-easy task of STF's.

WITHOUT needing a crutch provided by an Exploit.

Remember, the T4 Rep passives weren't tested before being released. The shield passive from Omega wasn't tested, so it made it to the Live server with math errors that resulted in regen rate of 1000/1 Second, instead of the more modest amount claimed in the passive's actual description.

Certain Posters on the Boards are now mourning the loss of this Exploit-which was not really needed except by those who (likely) climbed the "Repeat ISN over and over again" method to their rep.

Y'know, Kirk-wannabees.

As for my statement regarding Normals vs. PvP for requirements-I should have added a " :p " to that, so people would understand it wasn't entirely serious, with the exception that "normal" difficulty STF's are, put bluntly, really BAD for training-they don't WORK like Elites, and things that get you the Optional in "Normal" usually get you to "Mission Fail" in the STF's where that (mission failure) is possible (KASE, CSE), so not only are they dead easy, but getting used to them makes it HARDER to beat the "elites".

Infected, of course, is different-there is no way to fail that mission except by quitting voluntarily-even on Elite.

Observation in both STF and PvP play, however, shows that PvP players who PvP a Lot may not always have perfectly optimized builds, or the best gear (if they did, they probably wouldn't be running STF's to begin with after the first pass or two), but they do tend to adopt a better (read: more successful) attitude regarding cooperation and teamwork than PvE Heroes who can't or won't PvP.

Because the habits are developed differently when you have team players in an environment that encourages it, rather than individuals out ticking boxes as part of their daily Levelling grind.

See, in PvP, every time you die, it's a point for the other team-and every time a teammate dies, it's a point for the other team, and you have a limited number of points before the match ends, so you have a kind of clock, you have a constraint, you have an opponent who knows and is pushing that same clock and that same constraint and wants to win as much as you do.

Now, going with the skinner-box/pavlovian conditioning that is most video games, which type of content is going to result in better PvE players? Content 1, where consequences do not exist, you can solo everything, and teamwork is not required nor do constraints apply, or content 2 where teamwork is vital, time limits are common, and every loss is a point for the other team ticking the clock down to mission complete or complete fail?
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

I play KDF, because being a genocidal maniac works better with Klingons, than explaining it as a member of Starfleet.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,793
# 350
12-20-2012, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Now, going with the skinner-box/pavlovian conditioning that is most video games, which type of content is going to result in better PvE players? Content 1, where consequences do not exist, you can solo everything, and teamwork is not required nor do constraints apply, or content 2 where teamwork is vital, time limits are common, and every loss is a point for the other team ticking the clock down to mission complete or complete fail?
^^ This.

While there may be decent or good PvE-only players. They're usually not as good as the average PvPer in PvE.

I sure as hell would take any OPvPer in PvE like Cure, KA over any PvEer.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
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