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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,491
# 41
12-14-2012, 02:57 AM
Thought experiment for those who say it isn't gear...

come up with a viable build where the only "sets" available come from the following list:

Mission sets (not STF sets, not Reputation sets, MISSION sets-the Breen, Jem'Hadar, or Aegis sets)

gear ceiling:

(a)MkXi Blue consoles
(b)MkXI weapons/drops from mission content or Dilithium Store buys only.


Dilithium/Freestore ships without Uni consoles. (no Lockbox ships, no cheating by buying lockbox ships)

"Standard pack" Doffs (aka no purchases on the exchange, no Rep Doffs, no special event doffs)

Here's why:

The majority of the people you're trying to draw into PvP are working at present under those restrictions-they don't HAVE the MkXII STF/Omega/KHG sets, nor the Borg set. At present they're doing Mission content and/or roleplay, maybe a little bit to the Starbase while they wait for Level 50.

Viable Builds at lower resource/grind/character levels, folks-because people that hit 50 before they even consider PvP generally don't stick with it long-people that PvP "young" or "Early" in their STO career, tend to stick with it LONGER-at least while levelling, and tend to come back to it when the grinding gets too much.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 260
# 42 pvp and you
12-14-2012, 03:04 AM
does pvp warrant serious commitment?

The makers have already expressed a possible reputation system for pvp along with giving startrek online their new test bed pvp engine. (cant wait)

when? not sure, sooner is better than later.

as of who pvp's now? is it worth the commitment?

for someone that is passively enjoying the game, I would say pass on ship to ship pvp, the cues take forever to go, theirs filled with dil farmers that wont fight for the money they make, and pre made teams (pre made as in very experinced players that have great builds and know how to fly them, that group up from time to time, not that they are built around a theme or a true, true pre-made, but they probably are on some form of TS or Vent and or are focus fireing targets) MAKES it very difficult for someone with Mk 10 gear or basic vice gear to compete.

I read someone saying that its about "how you fly, its all about how you fly" those guys macro, have many, many hours of experience in the game and know the abilites backwards and forwards, the rig they use is not some cheap laptop with wireless conncection with the graphics turned way down, they are also very naturally inclined to do dog fighting.

heres my problem/point..

I believe that there is a push for pvp to become more important in the game.
I believe that the people behind it from the star trek community enjoy working as a team to kill/fight another team
I believe that these very same players want to level the builds out and gear out so that the only difference then becomes about skill flying/knowledge of the game and abilites/teamwork
I believe that these very same palyers are trying to stear the game towards their strengths, (endless time, money, skill, knowledge)
I believe that the only hope for new players is to have the game more open to more builds (consoles that work with clear explinations on their effects, combinations of weapon types that could trump the mono builds out there like 4 same type energy dual heavys with 3 turrets in the back with 5 tac consoles all the same poping people in under 4 seconds, not skill its called stacked
I believe taking the game away from the desires of the very people trying to control outcomes is the key to making it more available to the greater population

point being that the hard cores out there are trying to do the same thing they have in the past, train new players in how to do pvp, as if there should be more to know than focus fire on same target and build somthing that makes sense

but heres the trick, they really dont want these players to get better, they want targets to shoot at over and over and over

I say, re-look at some of the most common builds considered best, look at why they are the best, what are these builds weaknesses, and broaden those weaknesses

I say re-look at all the consoles and boff powers, if there are consoles that dont do anything meaningful, then they need to be reformated to serve a more important role

I say, re-look at each weapon type and find a way to justify mixing it up vs mono builds, even if it means massive diminishing returns on stacking tac consoles

I say, re-look at all the ships no one flys and find a way to make them competative again

I say, work againts a small group of the star trek community that is trying to draw fish into the shark tank with the sole goal of eating them up to stroke their own egos but to make the game truly something that someone with limited time on their hands and resources can still feel happy joining a pvp cue

I say, gear matched pvp matchs (something i read may be apart of the new pvp engine) is the best way to go with a mix of past game wins deciding who fights who to prevent these very sharks from down grading their ships gear just so they can go beat up the noobs (something that is the fuel behind each one of these pushes for boot camps and training sessions) NOTE: if you fight and WIN against most of these sharks, they troll you, they spam you with vulgar, hate, nerd rage, it makes you almost not want to log on again LOL

In the end, it is great to hear alot of interest in pvp, in the end its great to hear that the makers are looking at ways to improve it, in the end if a new player wants to hold their own in pvp they will have to vest alot of time in learning about builds, getting gear, and practice in order to even last 4 seconds against the sharks, only to get harrassed if they do manage to scrape out a win.
Just because it is not a cookie cutter escort does not mean it should not be in the game.

Win or lose, in the end it does not reflect on who you are as a person, in the end it is how you treat others that really reflects who you are.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 43
12-14-2012, 03:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luxchristian View Post
You can increase the EC cap for a mere 500 Zen . That ~52500 Dill . 2 weeks of dill grinding.

Or if you have a klingon , you can easily get that much dill with doff missions within ~1-2 mounths.

But getting the MXXII consoles without the exchange is pure grind with ESTF's, fleet action and the children toys' doff chain.
so, you grind for two weeks for dilith (or 2 months wait with DOFFs), then you need to do another grind for ECs. So... you need to spent far, far more time in PvE then PvP just to get GEAR that will make you competitive in PvP.

And you do not see anything wrong with it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Thought experiment for those who say it isn't gear...

come up with a viable build where the only "sets" available come from the following list:


[...]
They can come with them. I saw I can come with such builds. They will NEVER fly them becasue, as dontdrunkimshoot said: they need this special gear to compete.

I was flying such builds as I was a big oponent of F2P so I never donated a penny after game went F2P. And I hate this game PvE so I played it only when I needed to level up (no way to lvl up with PvP). I can say, that ships without all this bonus stuff are underpowered compared with those that are using bonus gear/crew. combining this equipement difference with skill difference and you have a mouse on the highway. With new player being the mouse.

No one likes to play the bloody pancake that's being driven over again and again.

You, oldies, wanna be nice to the new ones, show the the "true" PvP and allow them to compete (by showing that only difference is skill). Start flying stuff that's available for everyone without grind or real money. You wont be able to compete against those that wont follow - well, at least you will taste how the new ones are feeling. And it will be only part of the truth cause you, at least, have the skill that they lack.

Otherwise all this talk about the skill and how it only matters is nothing more then producing hot air.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7
# 44
12-14-2012, 03:44 AM
I beg to differ: for one, there's no need of rewards for PvP as it would only effectively increase the amount of AFKers in every match.

Now, I have been away from PvP for quite a while; When I used to play it, I have been reasonably competent from time to time, not a death-dealing machine but not a pushover either. While there is a small impact made by the equipment, it only really comes into play in a very tightly fought match; Equally, some of the game mechanics give an advantage to certain play styles (e.g. escorts and burst DPS), but all I don't really think any of this to be the real reason why PvP quite frankly sucks in STO.

The central issue is that the PvP is completely catered towards team play and too reliant on the "rock-paper-scissors" mechanics. There are so many things that have to correctly fall in place in order to have a good match that it's almost hopeless for a single player to queue up, join a random team and have a fun PvP experience, regardless of their skills: put an excellent player with 4 rookie teammates versus any vaguely organized team and it's gonna be a 0-15.

A player is either organized in a fleet, with training, practice, planned builds between team mates and whatnot, or better forget about PvP; Needless to say this approach is bound to fail, crash and burn spectacularly in a game that, otherwise, has a more casual "pick up and play" attitude.

STO puts too much emphasis on the "all or nothing" approach: fully specialize in two or three skills and depending on which ones they are they can become unstoppable; Try to build something that will be "good enough" in a broader array of tasks, and it will suck all around. This generates the ultra-teammates-dependant situation that is detrimental to the numbers and quality of PvP.

Adding 1v1 and/or 2v2 queues won't change anything if the game mechanics are not modified; Right now, a 1v1 is either a lengthy stalemate if both players brought complementary builds or one player steamrolling the other in the case of "paper vs scissors" builds.

Eliminate or reduce the "rock-paper-scissors" approach, make it so that "casual" players can go into PvP knowing they can count on their skills, or lack thereof, without wondering if there will be a team mate that can shield heal them or they're toast, and it's very likely the number of players in PvP will see an increase.

Last edited by h3llr4is3r; 12-14-2012 at 03:49 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 45
12-14-2012, 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
so, you grind for two weeks for dilith (or 2 months wait with DOFFs), then you need to do another grind for ECs. So... you need to spent far, far more time in PvE then PvP just to get GEAR that will make you competitive in PvP.

And you do not see anything wrong with it?
No, I don't see anything wrong with it. It's a PVE game with a PvP mechanism. If you want it the other way than play dedicated PvP games like Hawken, MWO, Crysis, Call of Duty, StarCraft, Chess etc...

It's like a boxer who complains that he has to do endurance training instead of fighting in the ring :-P

And as a swimmer I can tell you that it sucks to train 10 hours per week for a 2min51secs match :-P
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,542
# 46
12-14-2012, 06:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luxchristian View Post
t's like a boxer who complains that he has to do endurance training instead of fighting in the ring :-P
Unlike the endurance training though, extended PvE gameplay can make you worse at PvP... dulling both your physical and mental dexterity. You can develop bad habits in PvE or rekindle old bad habits you thought you had broken. You can form impressions that simply do not hold water. The list goes on and on...

...if only PvE gameplay were akin to endurance training for a boxer, there might be fewer complaints.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 12-14-2012 at 06:35 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 47
12-14-2012, 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Unlike the endurance training though, extended PvE gameplay can make you worse at PvP... dulling your both your physical and mental dexterity. You can develop bad habits in PvE or rekindle old bad habits you thought you had broken. You can form impressions that simply do not hold water. The list goes on and on...

...if only PvE gameplay were akin to endurance training for a boxer, there might be fewer complaints.

If you get your armors/alloys and reputation passives from PVE than it makes you better at PVP

If you develop some bad habits out of it, well, don't blame the game for your character shortcomings
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,542
# 48
12-14-2012, 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luxchristian View Post
If you develop some bad habits out of it, well, don't blame the game for your character shortcomings
One can only do so much with what they're given... and with the PvE we've been given... yeah...
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 49
12-14-2012, 06:45 AM
I had a lot more sympathy for PvP players before I visited these forums, that's for sure. Then I get in here and see a lot of wailing butthurt about how some new change broke someone's favorite build, and therefore has "ruined balance" throughout the whole game. The self-important entitlement puts me off, and I imagine it having a similar effect on the developers.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,542
# 50
12-14-2012, 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanover2 View Post
I had a lot more sympathy for PvP players before I visited these forums, that's for sure. Then I get in here and see a lot of wailing butthurt about how some new change broke someone's favorite build, and therefore has "ruined balance" throughout the whole game. The self-important entitlement puts me off, and I imagine it having a similar effect on the developers.
I'm not sure how you got to 350+ posts without seeing this everywhere else on the forums as well. The tiny amount of complaints that come from the PvP forums compared to the rest...is just that - tiny.

Given that almost no change comes from a PvP complaint - that almost all changes come from PvE...

...the amount of delusion from PvE players has always been mind-boggling.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
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