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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,641
# 131
12-16-2012, 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
...Beam arrays are horrendously inefficient with power. They are by far the worst weapon available when it comes to firing a bunch of them, because a broadside will completely cripple your power level. Which means poor damage. If you design a cruiser specifically to broadside, you end up using 6 arrays and fooling around with Emergency Power to Weapons and various other gadgets to try and use them properly. An escort, meanwhile, has absolutely no trouble at all firing 6 weapons at once. In fact, around 90% of all escorts are unimaginative cookie-cutter copies of the same 6-gun setup because it works that good.
You gotta remember, BAs got nerfed HARD a little after BFAW came out, because they were too efficient with damage output. If you were in PvP at the time, beam cruisers were referred to as "disco balls of death" if I remember correctly. When BFAW was first introduced and first used, a team of 5 cruisers literally could just move in, hit BFAW, EPtW3, APBX (different cruisers had different levels of it) and everything was dead in seconds. And I mean seconds (something about 40 BAs heavily buffed in damage and hitting everything and it's mother rapidly is probably why...).

As a result, I believe BAs were revamped to have a major damage reduction (15-20% I believe) and also had their accuracy and damage fall-off tweaked. Overall, they were nerfed HARD because broadside cruisers became too effective in PvP. Just like they are going to nerf the Tier 4 omega shield passive because it's too effective. Little do they know that it's one of the few things that allows tank cruisers to do their jobs again with the very powerful Borg enemies. Oh wells. Anyways, point being, BAs got nerfed for being too efficient. And then enemies and ships all got a pretty hefty boost in HP and passive resistances, and BAs were never re-buffed to compensate for it.

TL;DR BAs used to be good, got nerfed for being efficient, and haven't been put back after everyone else finally caught up.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 132
12-16-2012, 06:38 PM
Quote:
Beam arrays are horrendously inefficient with power. They are by far the worst weapon available when it comes to firing a bunch of them, because a broadside will completely cripple your power level.
My Excelsior with 6 beam arrays and 125 weapons power never really drops below 90. Ever. Unless I use a Beam Overload. And then it recovers power quickly.

I spam the hell out of Beam Overload and FaW with that thing and I've never noticed power issues.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 89
# 133
12-17-2012, 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krusso10 View Post
I never said anyone is forcing me to fly it, I never said it is an optimal tank (although not optimal it can be made very hard to kill if you know how) and the whole point is that yes, I can fly starfleet ships and yes some are still effective, but the Breen ship still makes the offensive Starfleet cruisers obosolete in many ways, the only thing left is that they have a better boff setup for survival instead of damage, yet in pve you really don't need a whole lot of heals and defense buffs.

Yes it is from Star Trek, but as you also mentioned it has been encountered by Starfleet before, and now the availibility in the game implies that Starfleet has complete access to it, therefore why wouldn't they be able to adapt the technology that makes it so maneuverable from it to give exsiting cruisers a higher turn rate? Plus you miss the fact that in the show any ship outfitted for war was considered a warship (the Galaxy class Enterprise D was called a warship by other factions although by Starfleet designation it was a cruiser) and the npcs in the game are named Breen Chel'grett Cruiser, so where is this warship class coming from? That would imply that it is either not a warship or that it is not the original from the series, so the point is invalid.

I also decided to read some of your other posts, and saw that you are obviously in favor of OP ships and other players comment on the matter and you return with something saying that you spent a lot of time on it and refuse to view it as OP. So I see no more point in discussing the matter with you.

The whole thing has also become rather off topic from the thread, so I will not make any further reply on the matter.

Subject terminated.
1. It takes time to adapt the tech i would imagine to a whole fleet of ships, its simpler to just use the captured ship and modify it for your own use and have someone study the thing.

2. The tech may not be able to be intergrated into Starfleets ships. It is tech from another alien race, one I might add is bent on terminating Starfleet. Its not very likely that Starfleet has had many options to study its inner workings.

3. You actually didnt capture the thing..Q gave it to you. For all we know it could be running on peanutbutter and ferrets.

4. Cargo liners and passanger ships in WW II were converted for use in delivering supplies, some were fitted with guns (for their protection, in general it was kind of useless) and other upgrades. I wouldent call them warships.

5. Starfleets main stay of the fleet is the cruisers it has, most of which were not warships (or so they say) but rather exploration ships or multi role ships. Even though they can be built up to server in wartime, they can hardly match ships built FOR war or warships made from other races who's entire culture is based on conquest. Space hippys dont get all the neat war toys

As for the turn rate, lets say you gave all cruisers +1 turn, ok so..what did you just do? You just gave the klingons even more turn rate. and honestly your right back where you started, pvp wise anyway.

I'm not saying its not wanted or needed, I just dont see the point.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 134
12-17-2012, 12:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by picardtheiii View Post
Are the devs big time TNG haters or what exactly? That is the little change I would like to see.
We have a winner here.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 158
# 135
12-17-2012, 03:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paneth48 View Post
1. It takes time to adapt the tech i would imagine to a whole fleet of ships, its simpler to just use the captured ship and modify it for your own use and have someone study the thing.

2. The tech may not be able to be intergrated into Starfleets ships. It is tech from another alien race, one I might add is bent on terminating Starfleet. Its not very likely that Starfleet has had many options to study its inner workings.

3. You actually didnt capture the thing..Q gave it to you. For all we know it could be running on peanutbutter and ferrets.

4. Cargo liners and passanger ships in WW II were converted for use in delivering supplies, some were fitted with guns (for their protection, in general it was kind of useless) and other upgrades. I wouldent call them warships.

5. Starfleets main stay of the fleet is the cruisers it has, most of which were not warships (or so they say) but rather exploration ships or multi role ships. Even though they can be built up to server in wartime, they can hardly match ships built FOR war or warships made from other races who's entire culture is based on conquest. Space hippys dont get all the neat war toys

As for the turn rate, lets say you gave all cruisers +1 turn, ok so..what did you just do? You just gave the klingons even more turn rate. and honestly your right back where you started, pvp wise anyway.

I'm not saying its not wanted or needed, I just dont see the point.

Fed ships where designed to defend them selves. Putting a name exploration cruiser instead of battlecruiser could just be a rouse to divert attention that startfleet is amassing a mass of ships for war. If this wasnt the case, then why was the galaxy and sovereign fitted with the best weapons starfleet had?

I would want a +2 turn on everything mainly because using evasive maneuvers as a means to turn the ship around to keep up with team players really bad for gameplay.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 89
# 136
12-17-2012, 04:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chi1701d View Post
Fed ships where designed to defend them selves. Putting a name exploration cruiser instead of battlecruiser could just be a rouse to divert attention that startfleet is amassing a mass of ships for war. If this wasnt the case, then why was the galaxy and sovereign fitted with the best weapons starfleet had?

I would want a +2 turn on everything mainly because using evasive maneuvers as a means to turn the ship around to keep up with team players really bad for gameplay.
The Galaxy and the Sovereign were made as deep exploration ships, they were ment to go out into deeps space with little or no support, in places where they could expect little support from Starfleet itself. Also they are not warships either. consider this that saucer section is a HUGE target there, and contains all the living quarters and families on the ship. Unless the builders were basing their main line defense on South Parks "Operation human shield" I dont think they intended it to be a prim combat ship for war.

The point I'm getting at is Starfleet is not some war mongering operation like the KDF. They focus more on protection/defense rather than brute force. They can do it no doubt if pushed too.

As for turning, I always managed with the 'back up that Galaxy's big booty!' trick in reverse (Funny it turns better that way..) and in a cruiser your not really using Evasive for anything eles.

I would say however not all cruisers would get a +2 (+2 is a little big considering skill would bump it up alot more) but I would expect the Galaxy X could use some turn love just to 'kinda' make use of cannons. When they make it so It can saucer sep I will be using that ship myself alot more, because then it will fly like the refit (or is it retro?) which I love.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 613
# 137
12-17-2012, 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paneth48 View Post
5. Starfleets main stay of the fleet is the cruisers it has, most of which were not warships (or so they say) but rather exploration ships or multi role ships. Even though they can be built up to server in wartime, they can hardly match ships built FOR war or warships made from other races who's entire culture is based on conquest. Space hippys dont get all the neat war toys
I don't entirely agree with this statement. On the show (TNG) for example. The Enterprise, which is considered an exploration cruiser) is shown to be the equal of nearly all other capital ships it encounters. Neither the Roumlans nor Klingons where fielding any ships that were ever mentioned to be more heavily armed or that could outmatch the Enterprise. If you're going off the game though then yeah sure the majority of Fed cruisers are somewhat of a joke compared to the Klingons.


Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 138
12-17-2012, 05:18 AM
A ship being able to defend itself, and a ship being successful as an offensive weapons platform are two entirely different things...

I'd hesitate to say that the Galaxy was designed as a warship. It was designed as a long range, fairly high-speed (when it was designed) ship with exploration and scientific research as it's primary goal, but it also had teeth. Sharp teeth. It had a hell of a bite, but that bite was still connected to a hipopotamos. It's teeth were defensive, and could display a rather nasty show of force, but it was by no means designed to be an offensive platform. It's got so many features of it's design that scream "I'm not a warship!" that...it can't be a warship..

Huge surface area, lots of windows, poorly-protected weapons systems and engines..These are features you generally don't want in a warship.

Starfleet ships seem to be designed with exploration and science first (As we know) with combat as a distant secondary requirement.

And this seems to have been the case until after Starfleet gets beat up by constant hostilities in the mid-late 2300s. Then you start to see ships like Defiant, Akira, Steamrunner, Sovereign, Saber, that are starting to fit the description of warships. They're more compact, they're heavier armed, they appear to be better protected.

Hell, even their lower-capability ships appear to be getting some teeth. The Nova's replacing the Oberth in general fleet-wide numbers..Look how much more capable combat-wise the Nova is then the Oberth..The Nova would probably give some of the mid-2300s heavier ships a run for their money, and it's described as a low-capability ship...Compared to the ship it's replacing, it's practically a battleship..

Starfleet is going in a more combat-oriented direction, but it isn't there yet. And it most certainly wasn't there when the Galaxy-class was designed.

Last edited by wunjee; 12-17-2012 at 05:35 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 139
12-17-2012, 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
I don't entirely agree with this statement. On the show (TNG) for example. The Enterprise, which is considered an exploration cruiser) is shown to be the equal of nearly all other capital ships it encounters. Neither the Roumlans nor Klingons where fielding any ships that were ever mentioned to be more heavily armed or that could outmatch the Enterprise. If you're going off the game though then yeah sure the majority of Fed cruisers are somewhat of a joke compared to the Klingons.
Enterprise-D was a fairly new ship in TNG. She was commissioned in late 2363. TNG's first two episodes were the Enterprise-D's maiden voyage.

Two of the more common major threats we see the Enterprise-D face down are the D'Deridex and the Vor'Cha.

We know the Vor'Cha was a serious threat to the Enterprise-D. Possibly even it's match. We don't know how old the Vor'Cha was by the time TNG starts, but we can assume it was fairly modern.

We know the D'Deridex was in fact a match for the Enterprise-D, and encounters between the two were often stated to be a "First one that shoots wins" kind of stand-off. Again, tho, we don't know how old the D'Deridex is. Romulans were just coming out of isolation, so we don't know a lot about their navy prior to TNG. But it is often implied that in an engagement with a D'Deridex, nobody was getting away without being seriously hurt..

But another thing you have to remember, until the Sovereign came around, the Galaxy was the biggest, most impressive, most powerful show of force the Federation could muster. And there were only 12 (Possibly 13) of them. The vast majority of Starfleet consisted of ships that much, much lower on the combat-rating scale then a Galaxy-class.

How many Vor'Chas and D'Deridexs' do the more militant powers have at their disposal?

So while Galaxy may have been a 1 on 1 match for the major warships of other Alpha/Beta quadrant races, there weren't very many of them.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,641
# 140
12-17-2012, 06:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
So while Galaxy may have been a 1 on 1 match for the major warships of other Alpha/Beta quadrant races, there weren't very many of them.
That is true until the dominion war, during which there were multiple wings of Galaxies. You hear them stating it, and you see them on screen. It's safe to assume that there were at least 60 or 70 of them in the fleet of 600+ ships that went to DS9. So during wartime, Starfleet decided to start to crank them out, because despite their obvious horrible design flaws functionally, they were still VERY powerful ships.

And the Vor'cha is an old ship design. The newer Klingon ships were ships like the Negh'var. It made it's appearance during the Dominion war as well. But one reason it's safe to assume that the Vor'cha was a pretty old design was simply because the Klingons were known for re-using old designs. They had the "why fix what works" mentality. I mean they used the D7 for how long?

As for the D'deridex, it's safe to assume that they were not huge in number. Not as sparse as the Galaxy class, but there weren't many of them.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
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