Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,742
# 11
12-15-2012, 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
Would things be better around here if we just decided to believe that things were better around here? I ask because it seems that a few folks have decide that you can create your own reality, existing definitions and precedent be damned. I couldn't believe, still can't really, the way they tried to redefine an "exploit". Now there seems to be confusion over what constitutes a "buff"? Maybe I'm wrong so I'll open it up for discussion here.

My understanding is that a buff enhances the default or base of something. Consoles like RCS, Field Gens, and Disruptor Coils buff your turn rate, shield capacity and disruptor damage.

The Omega and MACO shield procs buff your turn rates and power levels. Are those buffs or procs? Aren't they actually both?

People go out of their way to rationalize that what they do is fine but what you do is wrong. I'm no exception. I do however try to keep up with the basics in an attempt to be relatively well informed for future, desperately needed, balance discussions.

In video games, what you call something does matter. If we can't understand basic definitions what qualifies anyone to make a statement on anything? How can we have a discussion if we don't even know what we are talking about?

I've been informed on more than one occaision that what I've learned about rhetoric not withstanding, definition of terms is NOT important. Mostly by idiots.

Yes we should pretend things are better.

Any MMO I've played so far EXCEPT this one folks could pretty much understand game mechanics from different games as explained by other players using some fairly common words.

Buffs improve things. Normally temporarily. So although a console may buff something, you wouldn't refer to it as a buff. Yes it IMPROVES it, but the improvement is constant and the effect cannot be removed. Unless you remove the console. Using an ability to COUNTER the consoles function does not constitute removing the effect. So. Easy way to tell the difference?

All those things that Sub Nuc takes off? Those are buffs. Nouns.

What a console does, or if a programmer tweaks some numbers to make something better? That's buffing. Verbs.

Debuffs makes things worse. Same rules apply. Except when a programmer does it, it is called a 'nerf'. (even if it makes things better for one person and worse for another, as long as it does that in a negative fashion, its a debuff)

Let me clarify. Im invisible. You can't see me. You use an ability like CPB. Now you can see me. Thats a debuff. Im invisible. You can't see me. You use an ability like sensor scan on yourself. Now you can see me. That's a buff.

A proc is a proc. Whatever it does is whatever it does. So if a proc creates something good for you, its a buff. If it creates something bad its a debuff.

It's sorta like the global cool down thing. If we had one, you couldn't buffstack like we do for alphas. There just wouldn't be time. Global cooldowns, in most other games, means global. Means everything. It is normally pretty short. 2 seconds or under. So you can see how with a strict 2 seconds between activating abilities game play would change quite a bit, and how highly highly highly valued abilites that are 'off the global cooldown' are. But don't say that we don't have a global cooldown. Everyone is convinced that we do.


Cheers and happy flying in your new and improved pretend space!

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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 434
# 12
12-16-2012, 02:02 PM
For buffs, I see a grey area associated with the skill tree. Skill specs are buffs that can be altered and allocated repeatedly but not as freely as applying a bridge officer skill, set bonus, or console. If I equip Neutronium I've buffed my ship's resistance. If I'm fired upon whilst equipping the Omega Shield, the proc buffs my turn rate.

In testing a skill or ability, isn't it important to understand the difference between a buffed and unbuffed target? What's the baseline? Suppose I'm testing Phaser Damage against two targets. Ignoring the skill tree for a second, one target has 4 Ablative Armor consoles and the other doesn't. Which target is going to return the best reading for raw phaser damage? Would you report the results as two unbuffed ships?
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,742
# 13
12-16-2012, 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
For buffs, I see a grey area associated with the skill tree. Skill specs are buffs that can be altered and allocated repeatedly but not as freely as applying a bridge officer skill, set bonus, or console. If I equip Neutronium I've buffed my ship's resistance. If I'm fired upon whilst equipping the Omega Shield, the proc buffs my turn rate.

In testing a skill or ability, isn't it important to understand the difference between a buffed and unbuffed target? What's the baseline? Suppose I'm testing Phaser Damage against two targets. Ignoring the skill tree for a second, one target has 4 Ablative Armor consoles and the other doesn't. Which target is going to return the best reading for raw phaser damage? Would you report the results as two unbuffed ships?
No. No grey area. I can't remove your skill tree from you. It isn't something that you would be doing inside of a match. It isn't temporary. That and the abilities that they may bestow are not buffs. Jacking up a skill may buff some ability, but that's a verb. Not a noun. Those types of actions fall under the same umbrella as the unfortunate player usage of 'min maxing' does.


Ablative Armor increases your resistance as long as it is equipped. Although you could say it buffs your resistance, that is a verb. Neither the increase in resistance nor the console is a buff. This type of behavior or action is often called 'stacking'. Would it be important to know that your target is doing this? Well of course. Not knowing all this type of info is what makes most parses not worth the electrons it takes to do the parsing.

Yes the omega shield proc increases your turn rate. That increase is temporary and is shown as a marker on your ship icon. That little icon? THAT's the buff. And the KHG proc placates your attacker. It shows up as a little icon too. THAT's a debuff. It is also temporary.

So. What would you say. Take a look at your Phaser test. You might say that one of your targets was min/maxing by stacking ablative consoles for phaser resistance. This being sort of permanant as far as the duration of the test itself goes, you wouldn't bother using the word buff. Stacking resists, that is all.

Suppose one of your targets had the Omega set? You would say that the buff from the Omega set proc made it difficult to outmanuever.

Buffs. Almost always of short duration (but always temporary), from some other source, and can be removed early by opponents.

You may skill attack patterns. You gain a permanant bonus to any attack pattern that you may use. You're stacking skill points in patterns.

You then use an attack pattern. You gain a temporary bonus to some attribute. That last bit is the buff.


Baseline is whatever you decide to establish. If you're doing a test it is your call. I'm not sure exactly what it is you're looking for here but it seems to be along the lines of if a certain thing is reasonable or not for the purpose of determining play balance.

For instance polarize hull vs pet spam. How do we test that? Well we could see right off that you may need 3 copies of polarize hull to ever be able to fully counter pet spam. Well that isn't reasonable for a player to achieve, our baseline is to high. Spam would need to be nerfed or ph would need to be buffed (cwhatididthar?) to where the number of PH's that a player could reasonbly be expected to slot match at least one encounter of pet spam.

That is just a simple example to see if I'm going down the right path with you here. Holding hands optional.

In our new pretend universe, can you be taller?

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Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 14
12-16-2012, 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post
there was that "counter play" thread a bit ago.

until something like that evolves, i see this as a slippery slope.

then again, life is what you make of it, and i think that applies here too.

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