Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 73
# 1 PvP Suggestion
12-14-2012, 04:01 PM
Damage system upon death, applied to pvp system upon damage.

meaning:

- When certain amount of damage is received, debuffs are being applied
- When getting hit by energy weapons or projectile weapons, debuffs are applied at random
- Debuffs are not repairable by components
- Debuffs stay for a certain amount of time
- Debuffs get removed after death




In addition:

Cruisers (heavy and bulky):
- Increased resistance for debuffs (tank roll)
- Shortened time for debuffs to be removed (reflecting the large crewsize)

Escorts (damage dealer):
- High firing rate, procing the debuffs more frequently

Science vessels (healer)
- Ability to repair one debuff every certain amount of time
- Subsystem targeting skill, increases the chance for certain debuffs


I understand that on paper this sounds easy, but needs quite a lot of coding and testing.
But this is just a preliminary way to reach the community
and maybe later a developer, for further elaboration of this pvp improvement.

Of course this idea lives by the support and dies by the criticism.

Cheers.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 42
# 2
12-14-2012, 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by razhgal View Post
Damage system upon death, applied to pvp system upon damage.

meaning:

- When certain amount of damage is received, debuffs are being applied
- When getting hit by energy weapons or projectile weapons, debuffs are applied at random
- Debuffs are not repairable by components
- Debuffs stay for a certain amount of time
- Debuffs get removed after death




In addition:

Cruisers (heavy and bulky):
- Increased resistance for debuffs (tank roll)
- Shortened time for debuffs to be removed (reflecting the large crewsize)

Escorts (damage dealer):
- High firing rate, procing the debuffs more frequently

Science vessels (healer)
- Ability to repair one debuff every certain amount of time
- Subsystem targeting skill, increases the chance for certain debuffs


I understand that on paper this sounds easy, but needs quite a lot of coding and testing.
But this is just a preliminary way to reach the community
and maybe later a developer, for further elaboration of this pvp improvement.

Of course this idea lives by the support and dies by the criticism.

Cheers.
Would you have this system on top of the current one? So not only do your weapons automatically debuff like you suggest, but things like Subnuc will still be around for the players to use?

Plus I'm also confused as to what this new system would solve/improve over the current one?

Thanks.

Last edited by caffran607; 12-14-2012 at 04:16 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 73
# 3
12-14-2012, 04:21 PM
if u mean the subsystem targetting then yes it would still be available and as stated the science ships which have it often naturally would get an improved chance when using subsystem targetting for certain debuffs to be applied.


some minor debuffs get a good chance to be applied, and then with increasing severity of the debuff the chance becomes lower.

the goal is to remove stalmates, where fights take to long and to give the space pvp combat a more movie and tv series feel.

When two cruisers for example shoot each other, often enough nothing serious happens.
Which does not quite reflect, what we see in the media.

Last edited by razhgal; 12-14-2012 at 04:26 PM. Reason: plus
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 4
12-14-2012, 04:36 PM
Cruisers Primary Damage dealers

Escorts Distraction ships and strike ships

Science ships command nodes

there is only one role
Starship
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 42
# 5
12-14-2012, 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by razhgal View Post
if u mean the subsystem targetting then yes it would still be available and as stated the science ships which have it often naturally would get an improved chance when using subsystem targetting for certain debuffs to be applied.


some minor debuffs get a good chance to be applied, and then with increasing severity of the debuff the chance becomes lower.

the goal is to remove stalmates, where fights take to long and to give the space pvp combat a more movie and tv series feel.

When two cruisers for example shoot each other, often enough nothing serious happens.
Which does not quite reflect, what we see in the media.
We have that! We have phasers which randomly disable subsytems, tactical boff skills to target subsytems and skills like viral matrix, and boarding parties! How much easier does it need to be?

I would be very interested to talk to you in game sometime about the circumstances you came to made these decisions about, and what ship you use and how you use it. Perhaps even recreate the situation in PvP and explore what solutions to the stalemate are currently available!

Please Pm me in game sometime @caffran607 if you wish to discuss this further.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 73
# 6
12-15-2012, 04:07 PM
skills like viral matrix are indeed helpful and partly the reason for me to come up with this anyway.

however the subsystem targetting is quite short and a damage to your warpcore in a movie or a tv series takes quite a while to repair.

im not trying to reinvent anything, just trying to improve it further.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 42
# 7
12-15-2012, 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by razhgal View Post
skills like viral matrix are indeed helpful and partly the reason for me to come up with this anyway.

however the subsystem targetting is quite short and a damage to your warpcore in a movie or a tv series takes quite a while to repair.

im not trying to reinvent anything, just trying to improve it further.


A decent fully buffed escort can wipe out even the toughest cruisers, in that short period that its shield is down due to a subsystem disable. Its up to the skill of the player to spot this and use it. If the period is not long enough, its the attacking player fault for not being quick enough, not dealing enough damage, or the defending player is skillful enough to counter it.

A ship with no buffs up, due to a Subnuke or simply because of bad piloting or has a dropped shield face and no tac team is also incredibly easy to kill.

Now you can argue, yes escorts can quickly kill other ships, but a cruiser or a science ship can't in that time. But that's the point of the game!

How boring would the game become, if in a 1v1 a cruiser would always beat an escort because not only can it out heal it, but can also kill it by disabling its shields long enough to kill it, just like in the movies..... There is no skill in beating a totally helpless opponent who can't heal or move, and it makes the game boring.

At the moment there is a balance between healing and damage dealing, there is usually a sacrifice of one for the other. Now in the pug queues, there is a big mix of player skill, and you often see more experienced players in escorts being able to out heal a less experience players in a cruiser for example. But that's part of the fun of PvP, improving your skill and maximizing the effectiveness of your build/role.

I have taken my science character in an Oddy against a tactical in an Oddy, and done more damage and out healed him, and beaten him. How? Surely a tactical character should do more damage, but by timing when I use my heals and in what order, how I control my power levels etc, plus removing his buffs ( not disabling his subsytems) , I managed to put down a high rate of constant damage to wear him down, till he ran out heals and died.

Now he had set up his ships with mines, which I avoided making them useless. He did not effectively use skills like tactical team to redistribute shields, instead relying on more heals so he ran out faster. In the end, its down to the players skill. He probably was putting out more damage when using his all tactical buffs than I was able too, but why should that mean I die because his captain class means he can do a higher rate of damage and disable my subsystems making me vulnerable? It should be up to the player to choose when to do the most damage when the target is vulnerable, not the game forcing the target to be vulnerable so the attacker has more chance to kill them.

My tactical escort as another example can do a decent bit of damage, but is utterly useless at healing/tanking. Against a skilled science ship/cruiser who can balance tanking with damage, I will lose. But against a cruiser who uses skills at the wrong time, and the wrong skills, I will just wait till he is vulnerable and kill him. In a team with heals however, it is great at taking down the enemy, as I can concentrate on when to hit them at their most vulnerable either because my team has made them that way, or due to player error.

When a match goes on for longer than usual, i.e when you don't instantly get blown up or you instanly blow up the enemy, then that when PvP is fun, both of you have a fighting chance, and know that its up to your skill to beat your opponent. It isn't fun to sit there helpless with no subsystems all the time, no shields, no engines, no weapons whilst getting shot at. Neither is it any fun to kill someone who is helpless all the time. Part of the satisfaction of winning is knowing you earned it without any sort of luck. Having this element of luck, of disabling subsystems, will totally remove that. You will have matches finish with "You only won because you were lucky enough to disable my shields"...

In a team situation, cruisers are currently used as healers, being able to tank on their own and give heals. Science ships are able to make the enemy vulnerable, but also counter the enemy science ships. And escorts are the high DPSers. Coordinating all these different ships, not only to heal each other, but also on attacks is already what the game requires players to do, and when teams can do it effectively that's when they win. Hell, there are teams out there who enter the queues that absolutely tear the enemy apart, but individually as players they aren't particularly special. You get elite PvP fleets that fight it out for hours, with one victor in the end, those are the fun games where the tiniest error is the difference between winning and losing! Plus there are hardly ever matches, where proper premade teams come to a stale mate, in the end someone always wins whether its 15-14 or 0-1 someone wins.

When two teams usually stalemate, its because both teams are not dealing enough damage, or not communicating. Who's fault is that? The players. It's up the player to use their initiative and skill to try and figure out how to kill the opponent, not have victory handed to them by the game disabling the opponent for them. If players queue up in 0 damage ships, then they should expect not to kill the enemy, and the same goes if they queue up in 0 healing ships they should expect to die, if they are lucky they are teamed with players who can cover for their weaknesses.

It's a good idea, one that would make the game more like what happens on TV. But I don't think that the element of luck should ever play an increased role in PvP as it does already with Phasers disabling subsytems. At the end of the day it should be down to player skill and ingenuity to set up a ship, to both survive and kill the enemy. Plus, whilst a stalemate is not fun, but rare, players who don't enjoy a long drawn out and balanced match probably shouldn't PvP.

But bear in mind PvP at the moment is a mess, there are all sort of balance issues where things are too effective e.g Tier 4 shield Passive, whilst others are too weak e.g Tachyon Beam. Before coming in with radical new additions I think fixing all the current ones would not only restore balance to PvP but also speed up matches, reduce the chance of stalemates, and allow ships to perform more like how they do on TV.

Thanks!

Last edited by caffran607; 12-15-2012 at 06:52 PM.
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