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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 21
12-20-2012, 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
They knew it would work exactly as it does. It's just players (mostly PvPers) complained bitterly about it. And as such, they decided to nerf it. I still don't get what the big hullaballoo is about. You still get to blind a target every 12 seconds. What's the big deal?

Also as for making a build that keeps your shields up for all eternity? That's easy, I can do it with 2 BOff abilities and a monkey wrench (or a monkey with a wrench). However having a build that can do that, heal OTHERS well, and still put out decent damage, now that sir, takes skill.
If you don't PvP you don't have a clue why either of them were broken.

The PvP community is not even remotely close to this all-powerful boogeyman you people seem to think it is, in fact if anything our hard work in doing Cryptic's QA was repaid by having the devs wrongly describe the shield heal changes as a "nerf" (rather than a bug fix, which is what it is), so now we get to deal with the terribly loud wailing of PvErs convinced they needed that kind of thing.

Some of you people's grasp on things is so far removed from reality it boggles the mind.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,591
# 22
12-20-2012, 01:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
If you don't PvP you don't have a clue why either of them were broken.

The PvP community is not even remotely close to this all-powerful boogeyman you people seem to think it is, in fact if anything our hard work in doing Cryptic's QA was repaid by having the devs wrongly describe the shield heal changes as a "nerf" (rather than a bug fix, which is what it is), so now we get to deal with the terribly loud wailing of PvErs convinced they needed that kind of thing.

Some of you people's grasp on things is so far removed from reality it boggles the mind.
I do PvP, just not often. I don't really have the patience for the long queues. If I hate the PvP community so much, then why did I sign up for the PvP Boot Camp? Why do I tend to listen to PvPers when it comes to builds over PvE players? It must be so I could mock them and laugh at them, instead of using them to perfect my own play and builds. -.-

My initial post had some anger behind it. But it was really just a comment as to why OP was moaning and groaning about the adjustment on the tier 4 passive. I personally don't really care too much about the STA passive. I have it on my attack toons, and it's fun, but it only has a small chance to proc with a very limited set of parameters, which means unless you're setup specifically for critting, you would probably have long periods of time between procs to begin with.

I have been on the receiving end of STA, and I will admit it's very frustrating to be slapping a target only to have it disappear for 2 seconds. Granted I still know exactly where it is since weapon shots still appear, but when I get hit by one, I just switch all power to shields and patiently wait it out.

As for the SSR, I know it was quite powerful, amusingly so tbh. When I first got it and used it with the full borg set, my shields were hilariously unbreakable. However, I do agree with you guys here. SSR was too powerful for PvP, but just right for PvE. You probably read all the whining of the wimps about the S7 Borg being powerful as hell, and especially in HSE, how the Borg were actually challenging. The SSR was designed to combat the new power of the S7 Borg and HSE Borg. It was designed to make tanking possible again, and keep you from being exterminated (too badly) by the Queen and her minions. If it were up to me, I would have had those passives only affect PvE gameplay, and removed their effects entirely during PvP matches. So sorry to say, contrary to what you may believe my grasp on reality is actually quite strong.

But what you also need to understand (which I am sure you do) is that for some reason the makers of STO don't separate PvP from PvE completely, which they should. And as a result, things that actually give you a better chance of survival against enemies that are much more powerful than your regular player, will naturally end up with your regular player (even a maxed out PvPer) not being able to beat those things. Hence the SSR. It was designed to allow your shields to come back up quickly after getting hammered by BAs that do 6k per hit, so that when the 25k torp came, it would hit shields, not bare hull. STA was WaI... for PvE.

But hey, now it's balanced right? -.-
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!

Last edited by hereticknight085; 12-20-2012 at 01:16 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 23
12-20-2012, 01:25 AM
I wouldn't mind arguments to the effect of, "We need better passives because the Borg difficulty was ramped up" if the passives were disabled in PvP (the same way Threat's taunt aspect is disabled automatically). The problem though is that the supposed Borg strength isn't really coming from shield damage or even from the torps, it's from megabuffed stacking plasma fires that ignore shields.

The idea that you should earn passives or gear or something to better suit yourself for mission content is fine and all, but this isn't even close to the way one should go about doing it. Not by a long shot.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,591
# 24
12-20-2012, 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
If it were up to me, I would have had those passives only affect PvE gameplay, and removed their effects entirely during PvP matches.
Hence this comment. I agree, needing new passives to be able to handle the harder STF borg is a lame method of doing it, but it's quite effective despite it's obvious laziness. And if you've ever been on the angry side of 8 spheres that have all decided that you need to die, it's not just the torps that hurt, those 8 tachon beams followed by 8 sets of BAs and then 8 sets of torps can be less than pleasant.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,223
# 25
12-20-2012, 03:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Hence this comment. I agree, needing new passives to be able to handle the harder STF borg is a lame method of doing it, but it's quite effective despite it's obvious laziness. And if you've ever been on the angry side of 8 spheres that have all decided that you need to die, it's not just the torps that hurt, those 8 tachon beams followed by 8 sets of BAs and then 8 sets of torps can be less than pleasant.
thing is, YOU DON'T NEED THE BETTER PASSIVES.

Seriously. you don't. you need a team that...well...acts like a team instead of like five little kirks.

you actually NEED a sci with a build that favours their abilities,
you actually NEED an Engineer with a build that favours THEIR abilities,
and you need Tacs that are built to work with THEIR abilities.

All working TOGETHER.

which you rarely if ever find in a PuG. Tonight I Pugged CSE, had three ships from one fleet, and two of us outliers, and it was over in about 8 minutes, with the Optional. NOBODY was rockin' the Tier four Rep stuff, just decent builds and teamwork.

The Sci did De-buffing and CC, the Engie did healing, the three of us Tacticals did our thing, we did it without flying off the handle or going stupid-solo-the-kube.

last time I actually got Hive Onslaught (elite) to actually QUE, (as in kick, as in start), as in the last SUCCESSFUL run of it I saw, the scis did the sci thing, the engies did the healing/tanking thing (this was bEFORE ANYONE GOT TIER 4), the Tacs did the damage, I was in a BoP and there was another player in an Escort, with a Cruiser (Engie) and two Sci ships...and we beat Hive Onslaught (elite) with optionals.

It's not impossible, you just need to play with something besides five Tacs in Escorts to do it, and your tacs had better be paying attention to their surroundings and how far away they get from support.

It's called playing the game, instead of asking the game to play itself.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

I play KDF, because being a genocidal maniac works better with Klingons, than explaining it as a member of Starfleet.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,591
# 26
12-20-2012, 04:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
thing is, YOU DON'T NEED THE BETTER PASSIVES.

Seriously. you don't. you need a team that...well...acts like a team instead of like five little kirks.

you actually NEED a sci with a build that favours their abilities,
you actually NEED an Engineer with a build that favours THEIR abilities,
and you need Tacs that are built to work with THEIR abilities.

All working TOGETHER.

which you rarely if ever find in a PuG. Tonight I Pugged CSE, had three ships from one fleet, and two of us outliers, and it was over in about 8 minutes, with the Optional. NOBODY was rockin' the Tier four Rep stuff, just decent builds and teamwork.

The Sci did De-buffing and CC, the Engie did healing, the three of us Tacticals did our thing, we did it without flying off the handle or going stupid-solo-the-kube.

last time I actually got Hive Onslaught (elite) to actually QUE, (as in kick, as in start), as in the last SUCCESSFUL run of it I saw, the scis did the sci thing, the engies did the healing/tanking thing (this was bEFORE ANYONE GOT TIER 4), the Tacs did the damage, I was in a BoP and there was another player in an Escort, with a Cruiser (Engie) and two Sci ships...and we beat Hive Onslaught (elite) with optionals.

It's not impossible, you just need to play with something besides five Tacs in Escorts to do it, and your tacs had better be paying attention to their surroundings and how far away they get from support.

It's called playing the game, instead of asking the game to play itself.
I don't think you read my post. I didn't say it was the only way. I just said it was one of the more effective methods. I was perfectly fine at staying alive and keeping most of my team alive before I hit tier 4 thanks much. The issue is not the necessity of the Tier 4 passives, it's the effect they are having. Hell I was fine without the rep system. I was one of those guys who was saying BUFF THE BORG. And they got buffed. And I was happy. So please, don't preach to me about the necessity or lack thereof of these passives.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,280
# 27
12-20-2012, 06:27 AM
1) The shield regen as a passive rep ability is far too powerful that is obvious to anyone.
2) The placate proc I don't know I lack the true numbers. How well do resist work against it, what is it's true proc rate (as the numbers listed tend to lie) etc etc.
3) RESPEC SHOULD BE OFFERED, but likely will not be.

Finally the only thing 'required' in any PvE content is damage. Damage completes the mission. Some other things may make it easier, less frustrating, faster, or better but are not required by any stretch of the imagination. Sole exceptions are No Win, CE, and possibly HSE but I'm not yet convinced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
It's not impossible, you just need to play with something besides five Tacs in Escorts to do it, and your tacs had better be paying attention to their surroundings and how far away they get from support.
False, 5 tac escorts especially when spider tanking (or sharing heals) can crush ESTFs with very little effort. When the tac cube dies in thirty seconds it is much easier to tank. Honestly I find tanking 3+ spheres more difficult than a tac cube most days with the silly 5 stacks of plasma burn if my HE is on cooldown and no one is kind enough to share one. 5 escorts should still equal at minimum 5x TSS and 5x HE for shared healing and that is more than enough.

Last edited by bareel; 12-20-2012 at 06:31 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,223
# 28
12-20-2012, 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
1) The shield regen as a passive rep ability is far too powerful that is obvious to anyone.
2) The placate proc I don't know I lack the true numbers. How well do resist work against it, what is it's true proc rate (as the numbers listed tend to lie) etc etc.
3) RESPEC SHOULD BE OFFERED, but likely will not be.

Finally the only thing 'required' in any PvE content is damage. Damage completes the mission. Some other things may make it easier, less frustrating, faster, or better but are not required by any stretch of the imagination. Sole exceptions are No Win, CE, and possibly HSE but I'm not yet convinced.



False, 5 tac escorts especially when spider tanking (or sharing heals) can crush ESTFs with very little effort. When the tac cube dies in thirty seconds it is much easier to tank. Honestly I find tanking 3+ spheres more difficult than a tac cube most days with the silly 5 stacks of plasma burn if my HE is on cooldown and no one is kind enough to share one. 5 escorts should still equal at minimum 5x TSS and 5x HE for shared healing and that is more than enough.
Ahem...'Teamwork'??
Five Tac'Scorts going off in different directions (happens most of the time) who keep their heals and buffs to themselves is FAR more common, though it's less of an issue with Infected than any OTHER ESTF, because Infected is, pardon the statement, brain-dead-easy.

EVEN on "Elite".

But...that tactic really only works in Infected. 5 Tac'scorts in CSE is usually a good formula for losing the Kang early, and in Onslaught it's a great way to waste three hours until you've ablated enough players out in frustration to effectively get a mission fail.

edited for accuracy
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

I play KDF, because being a genocidal maniac works better with Klingons, than explaining it as a member of Starfleet.

Last edited by patrickngo; 12-20-2012 at 10:55 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 29
12-20-2012, 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
If you really need to stay invisible to the big bad NPCs there's always Jam Sensors, AMS, and KHG shield (adapted MACO for fed I think). That should fill in your 12 seconds.
I think the point is more that a passive rep choice that actually costs ECs to "buy" has now been nerfed to where ,as far as I can tell at a glance, looks to now be completely worthless.

I have to agree with others that a

> 5% chance to proc

> On a critical hit (which is itself a another, variable, proc % which compounds the other proc)

> with a 2 second placate

> And a 12s immunity



Just seems to be pointless and is not really worthy of a T4 rep power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Take the tinfoil out of your hat-Cryptic's got a long, valiant history of ignoring the PvP community entirely. It's not OUR fault your exploit got taken away.
People keep saying this and for the most part, yes, Cryptic at large has been completely neglect in it's treatment of PvP.

On the other hand Borticus is about as active, or in some cases even more active, in the PvP sub-forum than he is in other forums.

He's also shown a propensity for listening to PvPers (to an extent) and responding to concerns when it's possible. (And it's pretty clear that he even reads PMs sent to him on stuff like this from his posting history).

So I would say it's fair assessment that PvP concerns are why we've seen powers like the rep passives (rightly or wrongly) nerfed - it certainly is not PvE players that have brought light to the issues with these powers and their balance issues.





For anyone saying you don't need X to do X, I'll just say that reducing any argument to its absurd extreme like that is pointless and is effectively dribble.

You don't "need" to PvP in this game for anything, but you do "need" to PvE if you actually want most endgame gear and rep powers.

Or we could reduce it even further and say "You don't need to play this game, go play something else".


Statements like that are effectively worthless however.

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,223
# 30
12-20-2012, 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I think the point is more that a passive rep choice that actually costs ECs to "buy" has now been nerfed to where ,as far as I can tell at a glance, looks to now be completely worthless.

I have to agree with others that a

> 5% chance to proc

> On a critical hit (which is itself a another, variable, proc % which compounds the other proc)

> with a 2 second placate

> And a 12s immunity



Just seems to be pointless and is not really worthy of a T4 rep power.



People keep saying this and for the most part, yes, Cryptic at large has been completely neglect in it's treatment of PvP.

On the other hand Borticus is about as active, or in some cases even more active, in the PvP sub-forum than he is in other forums.

He's also shown a propensity for listening to PvPers (to an extent) and responding to concerns when it's possible. (And it's pretty clear that he even reads PMs sent to him on stuff like this from his posting history).

So I would say it's fair assessment that PvP concerns are why we've seen powers like the rep passives (rightly or wrongly) nerfed - it certainly is not PvE players that have brought light to the issues with these powers and their balance issues.





For anyone saying you don't need X to do X, I'll just say that reducing any argument to its absurd extreme like that is pointless and is effectively dribble.

You don't "need" to PvP in this game for anything, but you do "need" to PvE if you actually want most endgame gear and rep powers.

Or we could reduce it even further and say "You don't need to play this game, go play something else".


Statements like that are effectively worthless however.
With the Shield T4 rep, it's not a nerf though-it's putting it back to what the tooltip said it's supposed to do, it's fixing a BUG that was missed because it never actually hit testing until it hit the live server. What they are mourning, is the loss of a known Exploitable Bug in the system.

Bugfix=/=nerf.

It's kind of (but thanks to being tied to the Rep system not exactly) like the Voldemort bug that opens EVERY Boff power on your equpped bridge officers all at once-while it's funny the first time you dump EWP3 out of a fighter in The Vault, (killing everything that's chasing you without firing a shot) it's not how the game is supposed to function.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

I play KDF, because being a genocidal maniac works better with Klingons, than explaining it as a member of Starfleet.
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