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Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 41
12-21-2012, 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
There's no aux down time if you time it right and save epta for right after you use aux2batt. 1 aux2batt cycles 2x during the cooldowns of anything over 1 minute cooldown (over ~mid to high 30s seconds really). This means you do have 2x rsp, 2xdem etc since it cycles 2x while they're on cooldown. Also, .7@ 45 second cooldown timer is 31.5, this means you have near 100% uptime on eptx and any other skill w/45 individual cooldown and 30 second shared.

As I mentioned in a post awhile back I don't use keybinds, so maybe that's why I don't have an issue w/it. Since, there are times you can chain something or wait 6-8 seconds for a better option, eg use CVS1 or wait and use CRF3. That's a tactical option I like having and often waiting coincides w/a target's TT or RSP dropping out, so I'd have waited anyway. Other times I prefer to clear spam or hit multiple targets on a strafing run for pressure dps and see who's cracking.
your left with 0 when your second AtB is used and drains all that power added by EPtA down to 5, and EPtA wears off. about 10% of the time your in that situation, its kinda annoying, kills your TB, locks out your heals, and AtB if you have one cooled down, stuff like that.

2 AtB cycles every 10 seconds though. with 1 AtB, it might shave some time off the end when its used twice, but by then most abilities are practically done cooling off. i even reduce the cool down of quick cycling skills twice like CRF with 2 AtB! actually hiting global, give or take a second or 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
So you don't have the near perfect coverage using a single Aux2Bat that would if you doubled up without using Aux2Bat. All you get is a 100% chance at a 30% cool down reduction on everything, higher power in 3 of 4 systems, and you've increased the possible number of bridge officer abilities at your disposal by virtue of not having to double up.

Maybe one of the other abilities Technicians allow us to add to our builds could be used to fill that gap in defensive or offensive coverage.
yep thats what you do, amusing you have room and the right type of stations. sounds OP, but remember only tac cruiser that otherwise kinda suck, and some sci ships with no dependence on aux (lol) can get much out of it. like virus posted, only an escort with beams, cannons and torps could possibly make use of AtB and not have redundant abilities. and its got no extra stations to fill in for the type of defensive abilities its lacking.

thats why i like the vet ship and vesta, thanks to their universal and spread around stations they can maximize the potential of tech doffs. the downsides are still steep in regards to very little aux with 2 AtB, or inferior up time compared to 2 copies of something with 1 AtB. using the aux cannons on the vesta wouldn't even be an option too.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 544
# 42
12-21-2012, 03:37 PM
Not only the Aux Cannons, but all the console abilities as well as the hangars would be nerfed to high-hell with a 2 Aux2Bat setup on the Vesta.

I've found that, on the Mirror Vor'cha, the lack of incoming hull heal from the Hazard Emitters thanks to it often needing to be fired at low aux makes the ship extremely vulnerable (in a fit of irony) to plasma burns and transphasic+TBR setups. It's quite difficult to recover once the damage is done.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 43
12-21-2012, 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
your left with 0 when your second AtB is used and drains all that power added by EPtA down to 5, and EPtA wears off. about 10% of the time your in that situation, its kinda annoying, kills your TB, locks out your heals, and AtB if you have one cooled down, stuff like that.

2 AtB cycles every 10 seconds though. with 1 AtB, it might shave some time off the end when its used twice, but by then most abilities are practically done cooling off. i even reduce the cool down of quick cycling skills twice like CRF with 2 AtB! actually hiting global, give or take a second or 2.

... Snip ...
On the 2nd aux2bat use there's ~2sec wait till epta is available. After that you can move power setting/boost aux again above the epta boost. It's 3rd/4th use that may be an issue, after that the epta is back on cycle. Usually something happens in that time where I prefer to wait anyway.

Also, I was wrong before, the single aux2bat cooldown is between 25-30 seconds not the mid to upper 30s I mentioned before. These means you can cycle aux2batt 2x after 1st apo for example or cycle it 1x and wait 5-10 seconds (depending on doff quality, UI delay etc) and get a better cooldown on the 3rd where you can then have the same option again. The cooldown for powers like RSP is so large it doesn't matter in terms of deciding if to sync or not.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 44
12-21-2012, 05:10 PM
Aux2Bat is active for 10 seconds. That means you have a 10 second window in which all of your aux is directed to your other systems. It takes around 4 more seconds without an EPS Flow Reg, battery, emergency power, or other power boost for aux to fill back up to a reasonable level. Thanks to Aux2Bat reducing it's own cool down, you now only have about 18 seconds (after the effect wears off) before you can use it again.

Hazard Emitters is active for 15 seconds. That means you are have a high resistance buff and HoT for 15 seconds with 30 seconds of nothing. When you pop an Aux2Bat you have 15 seconds of coverage with only 15 seconds of nothing.

So divert power to Aux, pop HE to get the most out of it, then use Aux2Bat to give yourself bonus power, high resistance, a HoT AND you get to use HE again in only 15 seconds (rather than the normal 30). Incidentally, the 30 seconds you would have gone without resistance or a HoT is now only 15 seconds and you only need about 14-15 seconds without using a device or ability to recover that diverted power back into your Aux system.

That tells me that if I'm going to use a single Aux2Bat, I'm going to use it after I pop my HE (or the bulk of my moderate-long cool down aux dependent abilities). You need to work out a back up plan if you are going to try to use an Aux power within around 15 seconds of popping Aux2Bat but I can't for the life of me figure out why you wouldn't pop it first. The more you pop ahead of time, either on yourself or someone else, the more you benefit from the cool down reduction.

The worst thing you have to do, as a ship with Aux dependent abilities and only a single Aux2Bat is figure out the priority for those Aux dependent abilities. Do you pop them before or after the Aux2Bat? If you choose after, you have to allow roughly 14 seconds (unless you have a power booster) before you want to pop it. If you do it sooner than that then you made a tactical error.

If you are running dual Aux2Bats then you have absolutely no room to complain about the "risk" of using Aux dependent powers immediately after. Build your ship around abilities that aren't aux dependent or be more patient. RSP goes from 2 minutes to 1 after a single Aux2Bat and 1 minutes to around 30 seconds when you pop your second Aux2Bat.

Unless I'm missing something, and I know it's not hard to believe so I'm counting on you guys to point it out, the bonus you get from a single Aux2Bat should be cut in half at least. Running two Aux2Bats should give you the same boost that a single Aux2Bat currently provides.
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# 45
12-21-2012, 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
Aux2Bat is active for 10 seconds. That means you have a 10 second window in which all of your aux is directed to your other systems. It takes around 4 more seconds without an EPS Flow Reg, battery, emergency power, or other power boost for aux to fill back up to a reasonable level. Thanks to Aux2Bat reducing it's own cool down, you now only have about 18 seconds (after the effect wears off) before you can use it again.

Hazard Emitters is active for 15 seconds. That means you are have a high resistance buff and HoT for 15 seconds with 30 seconds of nothing. When you pop an Aux2Bat you have 15 seconds of coverage with only 15 seconds of nothing.

So divert power to Aux, pop HE to get the most out of it, then use Aux2Bat to give yourself bonus power, high resistance, a HoT AND you get to use HE again in only 15 seconds (rather than the normal 30). Incidentally, the 30 seconds you would have gone without resistance or a HoT is now only 15 seconds and you only need about 14-15 seconds without using a device or ability to recover that diverted power back into your Aux system.

That tells me that if I'm going to use a single Aux2Bat, I'm going to use it after I pop my HE (or the bulk of my moderate-long cool down aux dependent abilities). You need to work out a back up plan if you are going to try to use an Aux power within around 15 seconds of popping Aux2Bat but I can't for the life of me figure out why you wouldn't pop it first. The more you pop ahead of time, either on yourself or someone else, the more you benefit from the cool down reduction.

The worst thing you have to do, as a ship with Aux dependent abilities and only a single Aux2Bat is figure out the priority for those Aux dependent abilities. Do you pop them before or after the Aux2Bat? If you choose after, you have to allow roughly 14 seconds (unless you have a power booster) before you want to pop it. If you do it sooner than that then you made a tactical error.

If you are running dual Aux2Bats then you have absolutely no room to complain about the "risk" of using Aux dependent powers immediately after. Build your ship around abilities that aren't aux dependent or be more patient. RSP goes from 2 minutes to 1 after a single Aux2Bat and 1 minutes to around 30 seconds when you pop your second Aux2Bat.

Unless I'm missing something, and I know it's not hard to believe so I'm counting on you guys to point it out, the bonus you get from a single Aux2Bat should be cut in half at least. Running two Aux2Bats should give you the same boost that a single Aux2Bat currently provides.
Using EPTA after Aux2batt restores aux during a time when it normally would be 5 (or less given conditions I mentioned in a previous post). This restoration isn't just +X aux of epta and shift the aux cap up +X, it removes the cap so you can shift to a high aux preset or further boost it by another means such as a battery. RSP has 120 second cooldown. 120 x .7 = 84 seconds or a reduction of 36 seconds per aux2batt use w/3 purple tech doffs.

For a single aux2batt you'd have epts and epta @ ~32 seconds instead of 30 if you were to have 2 copies of a single eptx ability. Since epts and epta are different you can fire 1 of them off 15 seconds after using the previous on the 1st cycle regardless if you have aux2batt or not. It admittedly gets more complicated when you use a single aux2batt b/c there are times when things don't line up, but later do. Still, you have an option or choice to hold of on epta and skip a cycle or just delay it depending on the situation around you.

For me I lean to getting rid of the Boff cooldowns of tech doffs, and reducing dem3 to 1 minute down time starting after it weres off and thereby no benefit to slot 2 dem boffs for ships that have commander Eng. So, it'd be 30 sec on 60 off just to through cruisers a bone as if they had 2 copies of Dem3.
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# 46
12-21-2012, 05:49 PM
i dont think theres anything wrong with the way 2 AtB works, you always have low aux in exchange for your basically globals.

1 AtB, if you can micro manage it well enough lets you skate around the disadvantage fairly easily, and on skills you cant double up on you come out ahead even if its not true global.

again, i only really see this helping tac cruisers. escorts and sci ships ether need aux all the time and/or have to many of 1 type of ability to even need what tech doffs provide, and they don't have enough eng stations to spare for a copy of AtB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
I just wanted to say, I've never seen a more disturbing avatar
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 47
12-21-2012, 06:39 PM
A person using Aux Cannons wouldn't be using Aux2Bat. A person relying heavily on Aux power wouldn't be using Aux2Bat. There are other options for those people who want Aux2Bat without sabotaging their Aux power level.

That a single version of Aux2Bat can skate around the minimal aux reduction just further shows the problem in my mind. Ability management, or micro management I suppose, is part of a players piloting and tactics. That's why I think a single instance of Aux2Bat w/ 3 Doffs should be cut in half of current values.

That running dual Aux2Bats requires a few extra seconds to allow someone to recover their Aux power is a very minor tactical problem. That's part of why I think doubling up on Aux2Bat w/ 3 Doff should be cut to the current effectiveness of a single instance of Aux2Bat. It solves the power management issue and it keeps the cool down reduction from being so ridiculous while simultaneously reducing the impact of power creep.

I suppose if all of ones powers are bound to a key or two that would make things difficult for them to micro manage their abilities but I'm not concerned about the type of player who literally relies on the space bar and face rollings (not saying that's what anyone here is doing, by the way).
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# 48
12-21-2012, 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
A person using Aux Cannons wouldn't be using Aux2Bat. A person relying heavily on Aux power wouldn't be using Aux2Bat. There are other options for those people who want Aux2Bat without sabotaging their Aux power level.

That a single version of Aux2Bat can skate around the minimal aux reduction just further shows the problem in my mind. Ability management, or micro management I suppose, is part of a players piloting and tactics. That's why I think a single instance of Aux2Bat w/ 3 Doffs should be cut in half of current values.

That running dual Aux2Bats requires a few extra seconds to allow someone to recover their Aux power is a very minor tactical problem. That's part of why I think doubling up on Aux2Bat w/ 3 Doff should be cut to the current effectiveness of a single instance of Aux2Bat. It solves the power management issue and it keeps the cool down reduction from being so ridiculous while simultaneously reducing the impact of power creep.

I suppose if all of ones powers are bound to a key or two that would make things difficult for them to micro manage their abilities but I'm not concerned about the type of player who literally relies on the space bar and face rollings (not saying that's what anyone here is doing, by the way).
I use Aux on many of my AtB builds, both Escorts and Battle Cruiser for powers like TSS, HE, A2Sif and/or PH. Needing Aux and using AtB are not opposites.
Though I have no objections to AtB being reduced by no more than needed to keep it fair.

It is a very useful Fotm for the Cruiser player in that it can greatly increase the DD and movement value of a Tac build.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
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# 49
12-21-2012, 07:50 PM
Just my 2 EC: Drunk, Hale and P2wSucks have all good points. I would mostly lean to support drunk's point, and here is why:

I use a2b on 2 builds: one is a fed temp destroyer (w a tac pilot) and the other one is a klink zombie sci Korath (a sci pilot)

On the fed destroyer I use apo3. I get about 40 sec cooldown (from 1 min normal) with aux 2 batt. I can get another 20 shaved (that gets it to global cooldown) if I time it right, meaning I activate APO, then A2B, then 30 sec later again A2B. It is not bad, but not nearly as good as using 3 doffs for attack patterns (as I use on my klink destroier). I get to use EPTA and EPTS back to back, but to stay in sync I need to bind all those with A2B (ao on one key I have EPTA, EPTS and A2B). All nice and dandy, I get to cycle EPTx abilities but then I have 10 secs (when A2B is active) + 4-ish till Aux power goes back to normal (Max skill EPS and no consoles). In that time, if I need a heal I have to either wait for the A2B to wear off, either pop an aux batt, which will give me at best 75 power. Obviously the disadvantage is that your heals are not available when you may need them most. And I popped so many times just because of that.

On the zombie sci (APO1 that I have on the ltc tac boff makes it deserve this name even better, lol), with Aux to batt, I can't really heal my team mates when they need it. It is good for kirking around, but even like that you can still die often if during the time A2B is active, one or two escorts are coming at you (and your SNB is in cooldown, or the VM is in cooldown, etc, plus your aux is low even with an aux batt). The good part is that VM cooldown is dropped 18 secs (30% from 60 secs) on the first use (so only 42 secs left on cooldown from the entire minute) and after the second use of A2B (which has a cooldown of 30 sec w 3 purple doffs) is dropped andother 18 secs with pretty much gives you a VM every 30-ish secs. But you need to time it right. And timing it right is not easy when you are dealing with lots of pressure and you also need to think how can survive. This zombie sci is definitely a pretty silly build as a team build, maybe could have a purpose as the 3-rd sci in the team, but even in that case, you are better to put your sci pilot in an escort (even if loosing the VM3).

Overall, Aux 2 Batt w 3 doffs is definitely a very cool concept, also practical, but IMO best to use either on an Escort or cruiser. I think Escorts can get the most of it (with one copy obviously - I tried it with 2 but I didn't like the totally lack of aux power). Also a cruiser that does not rely on aux depending heals (for itself or team) seems a very good fit, even if part of a team, but that is definitely a better for a pug/kirking around. Sci w A2B, as part of a dedicated team is a silly build, but awesome for doing your ninja thing.

A2B also adds a huge disadvantage on keeping everything in sync. And if you want to keep everything in sync perfectly, then you need to bind it (at least one copy) with 2 EPTx abilities. My vote: it is fine as it is, there is enough cost of opportunity for this ability .

One more thing: Aux 2 bat is also great IMO to be used when subnuc. If I would be to run 2 copies and fight against some sci, I would definitely keep one only for a subnuc "oh *****" moment. A tac in a cruiser can totally void the subnuc cooldowns with tac initiative and A2B.
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# 50
12-21-2012, 08:25 PM
I have even noticed that several federation Cruisers have the excellent luck of being able to use Twin AtB builds with a LTC Tac BOff to get ApO1, Bfaw3, BO3 or even CRF1&2 on rotation in a build.

Cycling twin AtB on a Cruiser is the equivalent of twin ApO cycling on an escort.
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Last edited by bitemepwe; 12-21-2012 at 08:26 PM. Reason: thought my smart phone had said a dirty word
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