Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 777
# 141
12-25-2012, 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamipoi View Post
i don't use trics but i sure as snot don't want them to do harm to the community as a hole on account of the part of the community that asked for the i win button in the first place (in-case your not catching my drift PVPers)

its not the main nerfs that bother me its the fact that borticus is thinking about stupid stuff like PDS on battleships + when its the pvp community having the issue not PVE hence that "Fix" will be in spite of the pve community on behalf of the pvp.

since this is posted in the pvp section and not in anouther section where the community as a whole can see it i find it my responsibility to defend our HYs from a blunder of blunders and save cryptic the trouble of cleaning up borticus' mess again.
See, the fact that he even brought up the PDS for NPC's tells me that it isn't PvPers that they were worried about, but rather PvEers exploiting broken mechanics to "easy-mode" PvE content in a way it wasn't designed to happen... Again, we just brought it to their attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
We actually really don't like A2B, but it's a bit of a "third rail" situation. When we have the right fix to it, someday, we'll probably possibly maybe make it.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 257
# 142
12-25-2012, 04:01 PM
i don't care who brought it up the main issue is the fact that these devs don't seem to understand why some choices were made early in game development and are doing things that end up turning out like this

i do not care for the tipping point that is making them change this. I care that they don't make the situation worse because they bring in silly band-aid fixes for things they put in that rightly should not have been put in.

this should not be about what community is to be blamed or not and i don't want to see lame excuses for why it should be fixed i want the main issue the devs recklessness to be blamed not PVE or PVP communities...

though i don't hold high standing for some of the groups in this games pvp community.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,451
# 143
12-25-2012, 06:40 PM
In fairness the early developers of STO where very over cautious in a lot of ways.
Most of the changes the current devs have designed are great... its the implementation that has mostly been lacking... not to mention the lacking of proper testing of most of the changes.

Early development decided torpedos should have global launcher cool downs to avoid the possibility of torp boats at all... the current implementation is much better. There are other examples. I am simply saying that most of the changes that we at first may think seem crazy turn out to not be complete nightmares. The Mine overhaul was good in general... the mes values for every other type of mine is fine... the improved dispersal patterns work well with every other type of mine. I think everyone will agree the only issue with the mine overhaul has been the power of the tric patterns. I would have liked to see them respond a bit faster on this one... if they had made changes to the tric mines when we (in general) pointed out the issues with them 1 day after they went live... far fewer pve heros would be upset by the change. The pve guys caught on when they saw pvpers like myself go into stfs and liquidate cubes in a couple seconds. Now that they understand how to pull off the same type of tric tricks they don't want to loose there toys. I admit myself seeing multiple 100k+ crits roll off the pve borgs is fun... if not challenging.

I think second revision they will get it right... I just hope the changes they intend are implemented as they intend them.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 750
# 144
12-25-2012, 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
Making NPC capital ships immune to high yield torps would be an enormous mistake and you should be smart enough to recognise that. If you have even an ounce of sense in you, you'll make this new point defense ability target mines only.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 801
# 145
12-26-2012, 05:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
While this would be a logical choice to develop and implement in a environment rich of such things as mines and destroyable torpedoes. It does have one drawback. It makes to much sense, something Trek isn't particular good at Which would lead to player want it as well.

I would still say, get rid of mines altogether. Outside of VERY specific cases they make no sense at all in a space setting. Its just to much space that must be mined. And dropping mines on a ship cashing you, torpedoes work just as well, or better.

-= ISE: 12:19 -=- CSE 12:41 -=- KASE 11:59 -=- HSe 8:06 total =-
-= KAGE 5:43 =-
[7:07] [Combat (Self)] Your Dual Disruptor Banks - Overload II deals 123086 (41096) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Assimilated Carrier.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,892
# 146
12-26-2012, 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostusthorn View Post
While this would be a logical choice to develop and implement in a environment rich of such things as mines and destroyable torpedoes. It does have one drawback. It makes to much sense, something Trek isn't particular good at Which would lead to player want it as well.

I would still say, get rid of mines altogether. Outside of VERY specific cases they make no sense at all in a space setting. Its just to much space that must be mined. And dropping mines on a ship cashing you, torpedoes work just as well, or better.
i kind of agree with this notion of eliminating mines alltogether...maybe instead of mines the dropable turrets could be implemented as "mines"

a weapon that drops a turret, that fires independently for a 20 sec duration and a 30 sec CD

just an idea though
Go pro or go home
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,753
# 147
12-26-2012, 05:34 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamipoi View Post
learn to adapt the only two valid issues are chain crits and the time ships freeze ability
The only issue is Chain Crits under the use of DpB/DpA. The Time Freeze is an annoyance only and with out the exploit of the ChainCrit DpB with Trics its not an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fulleatherjacket View Post
If you have even an ounce of sense in you, you'll make this new point defense ability target mines only.
Torpedoes, Mines, and Pets, have the PDS do what it is supposed to do and attack those smaller foes in such manner as to make it possible for the PDS to shoot down these foes over a period of time. DO not make it so the PDS gets a 1-shot 1-kill against torpedoes, mines or pets.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP

Last edited by bitemepwe; 12-26-2012 at 05:37 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 243
# 148 good points
12-26-2012, 11:51 AM
.... due to the fact that these weapons remain susceptible to counter, and come with a very steep cost of opportunity to be used effectively:

- They can be shot down (even accidentally).
- They can be outran.
- They have very lengthy cooldowns.
- Their damage is significantly reduced by shields, and an unshielded hit is statistically unlikely.
- Utilizing a Dispersal Pattern requires up to a Commander-rank Boff Slot.
- Getting the most out of them requires sacrificing Console and/or Doff slots to a dedicated build.

Despite these drawbacks, the amount of feedback we receive on a daily basis has kept the issue on our radar, and under tight scrutiny.

[quote]

Excuse me but WHAT feedback? You mean the whining of the people that get killed by the tricobalt mines? Seriously?

Look at your own list again. The only reason why people get hit by mines is because they aren't watching out for them, they were too busy fighting something else to notice them being dropped or they simply did not have one of the DOZENS of means by which a mine spread can be neutralized.



Quote:
After a recent series of internal tests, we've decided that a few changes are warranted, and will soon be carried out:

The following changes will appear in a future patch to Tribble (probably in early January):

- The damage dealt by Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced by 10% across-the-board.

- The damage variance of Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced from 20% to 5% (this will lead to more predictable damage ? fewer highs, fewer lows)

- The stealth value on Tricobalt Mines has been reduced by approximately 25% (this should allow them to be seen from about 1k further than previous).

We're also still in the process of considering some, or possibly all, of the following changes:

- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)

- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)

We're particularly interested in hearing feedback on these last two options, as we're still deliberating whether or not they are a necessity, or even a good idea.

After more testing and feedback, we may decide that the overall damage dealt by Tricobalts needs to be reduced even further at some point in the future. If it comes to that, we will also re-evaluate the cooldowns associated with these weapons to ensure that their overall combat viability remains strong.

None of those options make any sense.

Reduce damage? Excuse me, but it takes a FOCUSED build to max out the mine damage. That means captain skillset, equipment and ship setup. Without any of the above the tricobalt mines are junk.

Reduce stealth value? Really? So that NPCs can insta-shoot them the moment they are dropped (and they do) and so players can see them 1km away and still die to them and whine harder?

point defense to npc? Even dumber. That would make all mines useless and very likely all drones/fighters as well since they apparently share the same priority in the AI.

Cooldown increase? What is 1 whole minute not bad enough? You do realize a cannon ship puts out far more damage in 1 minute than a tricobalt does right? And it doesnt have to be dropped in front of a moving enemy ship, doesnt require flying skill to PUT it in its flight path, cant be shot down and more amazingly, doesnt fly super slow.



You want to make tricobalts less of a bang? Here's a suggestion: Tie their damage output to the projectile specialization + subspace decompiler skill.

If only 9 pnts in projectile spec and none in subspace then 50% of current mine damage.

Easy enough, requires the most valuable commodity: skill points AND no one has the right to whine about dying to these mines given their massive current counters PLUS this.




about sums up it.
Just because it is not a cookie cutter escort does not mean it should not be in the game.

Win or lose, in the end it does not reflect on who you are as a person, in the end it is how you treat others that really reflects who you are.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 243
# 149
12-26-2012, 12:27 PM
Dear Cryptic,

I go into pug pvp and what do I see? Things to watch out for..

escorts, cookie cutter cannon escorts.

3 seconds dead without mousin' over to the tactical team or the reverse shield polarity.

they tell me i suck, that my defense is not high enough, my consoles are not leet enough, that i fly horribly and shouldnt even play the game, they say my first mistake is that i dont have everything keyed to 2 buttons, "my kill button and my defense button macros"

Im told that I should leave the game and go do something with myself, that i need to "play the exchange" to get the money to buy my 4-5 +30% same damage consoles and until i do, i shouldnt even show my face in pvp

Not that I should ever because im not a good pilot, I dont have a awsome computer with a great connection, I dont have the money/time to get the "bug", and I dont have my keyboard macroed up for "I kill/defend button"

In most cases, you get spat at in the face for lack of so much of the above and get swore at alot.

by who?

the top pvp's

now,

when 1 of them dies in a pvp to something they didnt plan for/expect to see in a pvp, we get to read about it here, in these forums

it seems to always come back to this attitude of, (I didnt do anything wrong, I have been killing millions of other players with this ship forever, the ships Min/Maxed, I dont need to change my playstyle or my boff layout, this [insert ability/console/weapon] just plain needs to get nerfed or go away, because there is truly only 1 WAY to build the best escort for all fights in pvp, and I have it already, and it is not about how the ships is built at the top end, its only about piloting skills!!)

I can see the same frustration from British officers in the past when they went up against forces that would not fight lined up on the field but attack with surprise from the woods

It is depressing to read so many posts from many of the most skillful players of this game trying to trim down the ways a person can use an escort (or any of the 3 types) and create this enviroment that only cannon escorts exsist with no special consoles of any kind,

I read, mines need to be taken out of the game, pvp is broken and just needs to go away, this needs fixing, that needs fixing..

What really needs to happen (and by the looks of it, they are doing it at Cryptic) is seeing that pvp is saturated with a paticular cookie cutter build for escorts, and on the forums it is re-wrote and re-wrote again, how to construct this cookie cutter cannon build,

I think the guys and gals at Cryptic looked at this and said, "well, what about these other weapons in the game? do we just phase them out, or try and make them relevant in some way?"

We then see the fixs to torps and mines,

We then see the additional bonuses to plasma (via consoles and neat weapons)

I look forward to what looks to be a great new PVP engine placed into the game, I look forward to the fed and klinks in mixed teams

I guess in the end what I am hopeful for is, that mines, torps, and plasma, (ANY really, of the weapons we generally do not see on a regular basis in pvp) being supported and expanded on, in the hopes that one day, we will see reasons for people to put these weapons on escorts, or dare i say it, place a variety of weapons on their ship besides just a pile of turrets and dual heavy cannons

OH, and I almost forgot,
I would love to also see the abilities from science and engineering become more cooler, its great that science got some love not to long ago, and as a player that was AWSOME! please keep it up and find some more clever ways to bring these interesting Boff abilities back into the fights in PVP
Just because it is not a cookie cutter escort does not mean it should not be in the game.

Win or lose, in the end it does not reflect on who you are as a person, in the end it is how you treat others that really reflects who you are.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,409
# 150
12-26-2012, 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamipoi View Post
i don't care who brought it up the main issue is the fact that these devs don't seem to understand why some choices were made early in game development and are doing things that end up turning out like this
.
you do realize that "early in game development choices" involved tric mines NOT being able to use dispersal patterns right? and beign able to disable targets for 15 (!) seconds with no immunity granted after words.... right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
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