Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 285
# 191
12-28-2012, 05:28 PM
I don't think they can just take it off only the tricobalts i think its an all or nothing.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 192
12-29-2012, 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamipoi View Post
I don't think they can just take it off only the tricobalts i think its an all or nothing.
If you're referring to de-synching tricos from DBP, there already exist weapons that do not benefit from boff abilities (borg beam and the hargh'pengh (sp?)). The precedent, and presumably the back-end coding, already exists.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,672
# 193
12-30-2012, 02:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
If you're referring to de-synching tricos from DBP, there already exist weapons that do not benefit from boff abilities (borg beam and the hargh'pengh (sp?)). The precedent, and presumably the back-end coding, already exists.
I think he was referring to the Crit chaining.

Many people say that its the fact that mines in patterns are treated like one weapon for critical hit calculations. Meaning that the entire cluster crits or none. Such that if you get hit with a crit its up to 4 crit hit mines at once.... and anything including tactical cubes is dead.

Some people believe that Cryptic cannot change that mechanic without having it effect other things like Dots from plasma weaponry, and some sci abilities. Which most people think would be a bad thing.

Cryptic hasn't said they could only change that behaviour on mines alone... or that it would in fact effect everything either. Its also possible that the Systems team will tell the STO devs that the idea is a no go due to the massive increase in server calculations needed. (assuming it would be more load and I can't see how 100s of extra calculations can't = increased server load)

This leads us to some of the other ideas, like DP not effecting mines as far as number out... or even making all the pattern abilities more like DP Alpha... in that it drops them staggered... or other ideas that keeps dmg but limits cluster size or removes clusters... so that crit chain kills are less of an issue.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 12-30-2012 at 02:19 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 325
# 194 skill?
12-31-2012, 01:18 AM
no skill to fire mines eh? no timing?

so its more skill to have everyone of the tac buffs cued to 1 button and mashing that when behind the target to vaporize their shields and hulll in 3 seconds?

plenty bug pilots out their practice that on a daily baisis

I read alot about trim this down, take this out, remove that

All mine deaths are pilot error

as for those situations where your disabled, traped, depleted, blind, etc I mean really? in those cases how should anyone survive that? regardless mines or energy weapon fire

Trick is, (with energy based weapons vs energy based weapons fights, there is a way to survive that and there are people that want to keep it that way, the nigh unkillable ship supported lightly from a team with heals)

Cryptic should be lookiing into that to fix

I get it, the personal pride of solving a puzzle, min/max, being top dog, etc but

try applying all the ways that could have prevented the death from the mine, then accept that the list will be pretty long and that there are less ways to prevent death from dual cannons fired by a tac in a ship that knows what he/she is doing WITHOUT the aid of teammembers CHAIN healing you

Mines/torps should have a powerful place in the game (good lord they are massive explosions)

Cannons/energy weapons already have their place defined in order of power

Finally, I get the concept that at top teir pvp,

maybe a another guys tac/scort/dual heavy alpha strike could be easily defended againts with the proper boff layout/consoles/etc AND it probably does come down to some sort or grind/piloting-dog fight (piloting skill being the big decider- not gear cause they all fly the same stuff)

I just feel that INSTEAD OF building a ship to tank ONLY energy weapons and expect to wave off most all harmless torps and mines -Then blindly follow 1 target at a time BLASTING AWAY as a tactic...

TRY BUILDING the ship to tank ONLY torps/mines and expect to wave off harmless energy weapon fire -Then fly the ship at a distance watching closely were you fly so you dont ram your face into a mine/mines

But then that would mean, there really COULD be 2 different approaches to dealing good damage in pvp with weapons, not just dual heavys..

I think fellas, thats exactly what the makers have in mind.
Just because it is not a cookie cutter escort does not mean it should not be in the game.

Win or lose, in the end it does not reflect on who you are as a person, in the end it is how you treat others that really reflects who you are.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 851
# 195
12-31-2012, 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beameddown View Post
no skill to fire mines eh? no timing?

so its more skill to have everyone of the tac buffs cued to 1 button and mashing that when behind the target to vaporize their shields and hulll in 3 seconds?

plenty bug pilots out their practice that on a daily baisis

I read alot about trim this down, take this out, remove that

All mine deaths are pilot error

as for those situations where your disabled, traped, depleted, blind, etc I mean really? in those cases how should anyone survive that? regardless mines or energy weapon fire

Trick is, (with energy based weapons vs energy based weapons fights, there is a way to survive that and there are people that want to keep it that way, the nigh unkillable ship supported lightly from a team with heals)

Cryptic should be lookiing into that to fix

I get it, the personal pride of solving a puzzle, min/max, being top dog, etc but

try applying all the ways that could have prevented the death from the mine, then accept that the list will be pretty long and that there are less ways to prevent death from dual cannons fired by a tac in a ship that knows what he/she is doing WITHOUT the aid of teammembers CHAIN healing you

Mines/torps should have a powerful place in the game (good lord they are massive explosions)

Cannons/energy weapons already have their place defined in order of power

Finally, I get the concept that at top teir pvp,

maybe a another guys tac/scort/dual heavy alpha strike could be easily defended againts with the proper boff layout/consoles/etc AND it probably does come down to some sort or grind/piloting-dog fight (piloting skill being the big decider- not gear cause they all fly the same stuff)

I just feel that INSTEAD OF building a ship to tank ONLY energy weapons and expect to wave off most all harmless torps and mines -Then blindly follow 1 target at a time BLASTING AWAY as a tactic...

TRY BUILDING the ship to tank ONLY torps/mines and expect to wave off harmless energy weapon fire -Then fly the ship at a distance watching closely were you fly so you dont ram your face into a mine/mines

But then that would mean, there really COULD be 2 different approaches to dealing good damage in pvp with weapons, not just dual heavys..

I think fellas, thats exactly what the makers have in mind.


Nobody should be able to deliver 600k damage in a split second (150k crit x 4 is not uncommon with tric mines). Nobody. Cryptic isn't looking at how to nerf trics because PvPers don't like it, they are to be nerfed because they allow for huge exploits in PvE content. If vast numbers of PvE only players weren't 1-shotting tac cubes and gateways in STF's they probably wouldn't care too much about it. Blame yourselves and stop looking for a scapegoat.

Oh, and if you can tell me how to reliably survive 600k worth of damage, delivered all at once, I would love to hear it.
Quote:
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ RIYOTT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ: Have you wondered that maybe all the things they've added to the gaem lately is to literally make PvP unbearable? Because everything they've added has no use in PvE at all; we know the big boss hates 14 yo min maxers

Last edited by brandonfl; 12-31-2012 at 01:50 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,730
# 196
12-31-2012, 02:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beameddown View Post

All mine deaths are pilot error

as for those situations where your disabled, traped, depleted, blind, etc I mean really? in those cases how should anyone survive that? regardless mines or energy weapon fire
No, not all mine deaths are pilot error.

lol, I survive placates just fine. It's when they get combined with Trics that they become stupidly powerful abilities.

AMS + EWP + Tric Mines is a stupidly easy and powerful combo that is hard to resist. It's only going to get worse with that placate passive that doesn't break with damage.

You don't need Trics for PvE content, for ****s sake. And they are too powerful for how easy it is to deploy them in PvP.

And lol at comparing Tric mine spamming with Tac Escort alphas.

Alphas actually take skill, timing and teamwork to pull off against solid teams.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 338
# 197 Tricobombers Unite
01-05-2013, 04:14 PM
It has come to my attention that, thanks to community feedback aka "whining," a favorite weapon of a number of us for PvE is about to get hit with the Nerf hammer. While I have read a dev post regarding the reasons for this, and the mechanics for the proposed nerf, and while the nerf would not create a situation as bad for tricobalt fans as existed before the mines became affected by dispersal patterns; I am still strongly against any nerf aimed at tricobalt mines. It appears that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease," when it comes to nerfing things, so my aim is to make my wheel squeaky enough to count.

I believe that the devs are aware of some or all of the following points, but let me reiterate:

1) I have both used and been hit by tricobalt mines in PvP, and I am pretty well convinced that they are powerful but not truly dominating by any means. There are a whole host of abilities to defeat both them and the tactics that maximize their impact, and even a newcomer to PvP can figure that out. In most cases, I am a lot more afraid of a well-executed alpha strike by a BoP in PvP than a spread of tricobalt mines dropped out of the back of my target, with or without warp plasma or tractor beams and such.

2) I primarily enjoy using these mines in PvE, and can do some great things with them in STF's, but beyond a certain point maximizing the impact of tricobalt weaponry requires extreme specialization just like anything else. There are rumors of incredible things one can do with tricobalts, but a ship equipped to do those things to the fullest will be unable to do certain other things--I'll just leave it at that. My point is, these are now great weapons for a lot of things, but are still shy of game-breaking.

I know I have friends and fleetmates with further things to say, so I'll leave my comments at that for now, and invite them to contribute to this thread and participate in any debate that may follow. As for me, I will be truly disappointed and saddened if one of my favorite "toys" has the edge taken off it because of a bunch of players that saw a few spectacular explosions and didn't take the time to think before calling for a nerf.

best,
~Katie@Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
U.S.S. Indefatigable, NCC-91909-A

Former/Cryptic Name: Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
Founding member, Special Service Squadron
"Fear God and Dread Nought." First Sea Lord, Adm. Jacky Fisher
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 198
01-05-2013, 04:44 PM
If you actually read the main thread on this, you'll see that there is very little "whining" (to use your term) directed at Trico mines themselves. The issues are the chain crits (if one mine crits, all of them crit) and the massive boost Tricos get from dispersal patterns. Instead of dealing with those problems (which have been raised in part or in whole by various folks for years now, Cryptic wants to be their usual lazy self and avoid the core of the problem.

Secondly, the more concerning thing isn't the Trico conversation, but that Cryptic seems to want to make battleship and dreadnaught tier ships completely immune to targetable projectiles (mines, HY torps) and carrier pets.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,145
# 199
01-05-2013, 05:17 PM
If these changes go through this will be a nerf to the B'rel retrofit, and it deserves to be buffed to make up for weakening its primary weapon. Targetable torpedos shot by players need to move faster and be harder to shoot down by NPCs and the B'rel should have the amount of time it is visible after shooting a torp reduced. Make it so we can actually kill stuff at a reasonable rate with torps if we can't with mines anymore.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,730
# 200
01-05-2013, 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by theindefatigable View Post
1) I have both used and been hit by tricobalt mines in PvP, and I am pretty well convinced that they are powerful but not truly dominating by any means. There are a whole host of abilities to defeat both them and the tactics that maximize their impact, and even a newcomer to PvP can figure that out. In most cases, I am a lot more afraid of a well-executed alpha strike by a BoP in PvP than a spread of tricobalt mines dropped out of the back of my target, with or without warp plasma or tractor beams and such.
A well executed alpha strike can be defended easily with Tac Team + EPTS and any other shield resist.

Try defending against an EWP + AMS + Tric mine combo. Or try defending against the Timeship + Tric combo, where the mines activate while you're helpless and then blow up when time resumes.

Your belief is irrelevant. It's been tested. The only way to survive at least one hit in a 3-crit chain is to use an Intrepid w/ Ablative activated, and buffed with PH, HE, etc. And after your armor is disabled by the first Tric, you end up nuked anyway by the rest of the Trics.

And the only real Tricbombers are the ones who use torpedos, not the nubs who only started using Trics after it was found out (by OPvPers) that they crit-chained for insane damage with DPB.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.

Last edited by snoge00f; 01-05-2013 at 05:41 PM.
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