Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 241
01-06-2013, 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
In Some other MMOs... DOT dmg / over time or Condition dmg or what ever we want to call it is removed completely from the critical hit mechanics... meaning things like mines in those games would simply never have the possibility of critical hits...
I'm curious why you classify mines as a DOT dmg.

Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,794
# 242
01-06-2013, 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I'm curious why you classify mines as a DOT dmg.
There a damage over time weapon... imo.
I can drop them counting on them to do dmg 5-30s later. (they are also more then one hit.... in many MMOs they have skills that cause dmg 5-20s later if they are not removed... its a close comparison I think)

Honestly its Cryptics own engine that treats them that way... they are calculated as such, as evidenced in the way the critical hits are calculated in the same way as any other over time dmg.

I do believe that the entire issue of any mines or mine based weapon (breen cluster will be the next complained about item after the trics are fixed) being considered unbalanced revolves around critical hits. So why not remove critical hits from them period. Then look at the dmg numbers of each weapons. Another increase to mine base dmg would be a nice boost for sci and engi, playing sci / sci and engi / engi... and remove the 1.2mil tac boosted tric crits... and the 100k breen cluster tac crit roll as well.... not to mention that a Dispersal pattern Quantum or Plasma mine field in PvE from a tac can crit north of 100k as well.

I doubt honestly that systems will be able to Unlink things in the way people seem to agree would be right. Server load issues aside... if we delink Critical calculations on Dots while still allowing them.... Tac based Dot Builds are going to be come obscene... think of it this way....

If Cryptic delinks dot crit calcs... The probability math of landing ALOT more critical hits on dots goes up believe it or not. Yes right now you can get lucky and crit chain 2-3 dots and do lots of dmg... still a delinked system will overall = more dmg and honestly it will be super reliable.... the chances of NOT getting a massive amount of crits out of your delinked dots will be very low.

I think the Systems guys are smart enough to understand how the server will handle all the extra math, and will likely simply say it can't be done. Really think about all the extra math... Gravity wells.... Tykens... TBR... Tractor beams... EWP... Plasma Weapons... aceton (I know lol) mines, right now the server makes one dice roll for all of those skills/weapons at the start of there cycles. Now the server would have to continue to roll on every single tick... for every single player AND every single NPC and Pet toy... I doubt the server can handle it honestly... It is why a game like *cough* GW doesn't have condition dmg crit, as a nice bonus its better for balance anyway... so its a win win, less server load easier to balance... The Cryptic guys should take some notes.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6
# 243
01-06-2013, 04:19 PM
You do realize that this also affects PvE right? And the OP even mention's adding a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,794
# 244
01-06-2013, 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathfromabove17 View Post
You do realize that this also affects PvE right? And the OP even mention's adding a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs.
The fix would be aimed almost entirely at Pve... this is a Pve Issue not really a pvp one.

Annoying in PvP sure... but game breaking in PvE.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 269
# 245
01-06-2013, 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathfromabove17 View Post
You do realize that this also affects PvE right? And the OP even mention's adding a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs.
Tell me more how putting point defense on npcs will help the "pvp" side to these things...
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 246
01-06-2013, 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Because a systematic change to multiple mechanics in the game won't have any effect on non-PvP players right?
Go make a thread about it in PvE game play feedback. Thanks.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 75
# 247 it's still relevant
01-06-2013, 06:07 PM
no go on! it all still relevant to mines. they are putting them on there for mines are they not?

ps don't mind that Sauerkraut Pax. he's just a grumpy. lol

Last edited by davidfloresii; 01-06-2013 at 06:10 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 370
# 248 stuff from upstairs
01-06-2013, 06:21 PM
Quote:
"They can be shot down (even accidentally).
- They can be outran.
- They have very lengthy cooldowns.
- Their damage is significantly reduced by shields, and an unshielded hit is statistically unlikely.
- Utilizing a Dispersal Pattern requires up to a Commander-rank Boff Slot.
- Getting the most out of them requires sacrificing Console and/or Doff slots to a dedicated build."

response:
I think these are key points to focus on in regards to pvp and if mines willl have a place (torps for that matter that can be equally avoided/shot down),

while I suppose it has been easier to build a pvp tac/escort in the past (cannons being the only good way to do kills) it has been a been a breath of fresh air to have an alternative in combat that even works against standard build/tactics of cookie cutter cannon builds, I even look forward to more use of other mines and torps as doffs for mines are used to speed up their launching

It has created a new approach to the battle as these once virtually unused weapons (torps/mines) are getting a second life and opens up the door for varity in the matches


Quote:
"The following changes will appear in a future patch to Tribble (probably in early January):

- The damage dealt by Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced by 10% across-the-board.

- The damage variance of Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced from 20% to 5% (this will lead to more predictable damage ? fewer highs, fewer lows)"

response:
I think both of these would stear these weapons only into the hands of those that are willing to fully commit their ship/build to spec in them to make them a threat in the match, for those science/cruiser builds out there, it might even remove them all together due to all of the above (shot down, evaded, etc) lower damage with a slim chance of crit means shopping for other weapons to fill that slot that may help more in combat than a hail mary that never pays off


Quote:
"- The stealth value on Tricobalt Mines has been reduced by approximately 25% (this should allow them to be seen from about 1k further than previous)."

Response:
I like this one alot, I think that it lends well to what mines are about, and would aid those that are actively trying to avoid mines while in the pvp match while at the same time leaving mines deadly for those that are not looking at all (all those wonderful tunnel vision tac/scorts mashing macro kill keys while flying 1k behind their targets)

Quote:
"We're also still in the process of considering some, or possibly all, of the following changes:

- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)"

Response:
I dont mind this one either as well, from a min/maxer point of view it still pays off to use the commander lvl dispersal pattern and would still pose a threat to any undefended, poorly flown ship, that happens to focus on their target more than keeping their eyes peeled for hazzards like mines

quote:
"- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)"

response:
I think this would be the death of mines and targetable torps, (or if just made to target mines only then torps may still be used). If this was done, I believe it would have a secondary effect anyways of seeing the end to torp/projectile boats in general. Many of us look at torps and mines of the same kind as weapons to mix and match on the starship, along with (in most cases) excessive tactical boff slots (at least on the escort line of ships) as a way a diversifing our damage from just torps and play havoc on ships poorly piloted

Final thought:
torpedos in star trek are just as famous as "fire the phasers", In many cases they are very powerful and cause all sorts of havok on star ships they hit, I feel its important to say that there are many of us out there that love the moments from the movies and shows that feature them and hope that there is a top place for them in pvp next to cannons
Just because it is not a cookie cutter escort does not mean it should not be in the game.

Win or lose, in the end it does not reflect on who you are as a person, in the end it is how you treat others that really reflects who you are.

Last edited by beameddown; 01-06-2013 at 06:24 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 249
01-06-2013, 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by omgrandalthor View Post
Tell me more how putting point defense on npcs will help the "pvp" side to these things...
it wont. .........
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 250
01-06-2013, 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
There a damage over time weapon... imo.
I can drop them counting on them to do dmg 5-30s later. (they are also more then one hit.... in many MMOs they have skills that cause dmg 5-20s later if they are not removed... its a close comparison I think)
I don't think they fit that definition specifically, I see them as a burst damage tool similar to Torpedos but with a (delayed) delivery mechanic.

I tend to consider something like Plasma Torpedo Procs to fit the definition of a DOT ability better.

I agree with a lot of the rest of your ideas on it though, and personally think the "one crit all crit" should be the first thing they attempt to fix but I don't have an answer to the second issue you mentioned about how that might actually make crits more reliable if they are allowed to continue to crit.

I'm not sure I agree with them being separate from crits entirely however.

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