Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 259
# 61
12-20-2012, 08:37 PM
1. I think that the time ship ability should freeze all mines (friendly and enemy) as well as the enemy ship/s and whatever else it freezes (that may take some doing though)

2. In my opinion debuffing mines base damage is a bad idea (and the variation in damage reduction is a good one), the dispersal pattern nerf is a much better choice as a temporary fix. That would probably be a simple copy and past of code from another mine varient and a few tweaks.

3. NPC issues mainly killing the CSE cubes before the generators with trikes (as far as I know) making mines (and esp targetable torps) useless against NPCs is insane, half the NPC issues (if not all of them, I don't know how OP trics are in STFs other than that I have never used them effectively) would be fixed by making the generator heals in STFs give full 100% resist (like the Vesta shield) and not heal to the NPCs they are targeting.

4. This may sound insane and would probably be highly debatible and not to mention quite a bit of work for the devs: the op made me think of an option to disable all damage variation from your ship on tribble (so any damage you do to anything else will not have any variation in amounts of damage per hit) to make testing a lot easier.

Starfleet M.A.C.O. KDF Honour Guard

Last edited by afree100; 01-06-2013 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Fix some Spelling Errors
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 62
12-20-2012, 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
.

- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)

- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)

We're particularly interested in hearing feedback on these last two options, as we're still deliberating whether or not they are a necessity, or even a good idea.

After more testing and feedback, we may decide that the overall damage dealt by Tricobalts needs to be reduced even further at some point in the future. If it comes to that, we will also re-evaluate the cooldowns associated with these weapons to ensure that their overall combat viability remains strong.
I'm totally for changing tricobolts, but the dispersal pattern change you mentioned would be terrible. You destroy both faucets of spike damage and sustained. Nobody would ever use them., especially if they are useless against large NPC targets but still maintain a huge 1 minute cooldown,

You need to reduce their cooldown to 30 seconds, and reduce their damage accordingly; so their spike isn't so concentrated as in a 1 minute cooldown.

Last edited by xantris; 12-20-2012 at 08:57 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,774
# 63
12-20-2012, 09:50 PM
I don't mind changes to the Tric Mines, I just have a few worries:

1. The timeship consoles are really a major problem, because they freeze everybody, preventing ANY chance of a counter whatsoever, essentially guaranteeing a kill while using very little skill and effort. More than any changes to tric mines themselves, THIS needs to be looked at.

Even with these changes, the timeships will still have usage of these at their current levels. If they do stop using tric mines, they can still use something else. Maybe it won't be soon, but there WILL be something they'll use to a far far greater effect than they should all because of a console.

2. Chain critting. While not a player's fault, the fact that they can and do, is partially what makes them so wicked. I think that's the whole reason why tric torpedos don't hit mega-hard without being buffed somehow, because all that instant damage along with the disable and repel is why they were kept that way in the first place.

3. Things really won't change much even by doing all this. People will still probably tric bomb. They may not do as much damage, but they can still be buffed by consoles and more importantly, TAC BUFFs (including, extra crit chance and severity).

That's something to keep in mind, between tac buffs and tric consoles, the actual damage and crits won't really change all that much to be honest. It'll still be easy to hit 6 figure damages.

4. The nerf-bat might be swung too hard. This is particularly important to me, because I feel all strategies should be at least fairly even to use, in both risk and reward. It shouldn't be that whole teams of tric bombers can utterly destroy anything and everything in their way in PvE and PvP without slowing down. That's a huge issue.

BUT, if these are nerfed too hard, as others said, then they become little more than the joke they were at the get-go. No one would use em, and the whole point of the revamped mines would be kind of moot, at least for trics.



However, I don't think that bigger ships should get a PDS though. That would just ruin using any mines or HY torps at all. But maybe a more adaptive approach might be better.

Say...give a lot of larger enemies Polarize Hull (ESPECIALLY Borg cubes). That'd make them immune to tractors, while also allowing for a nice, free chunk of damage resistance.

A simpler way, would just be to make all enemies more resistant in PvE stuff, the more you used something. I don't mean like more resistance to cannon fire, but more like the disable from them, give the enemies more resistance the more you use it. And this would be a map-wide thing. So if you tric mine a borg cube, the next thing you try and use it on, would not be as affected.

That could also include the damage from ONLY trics (to prevent near-immunity to damage or anything). It might not remove tric bombing PvE stuff, but it'd at least make people strategize a little more.

I have more to say, but I'll hold for now.

The biggest thing though, is the time ship consoles, and the chain critting. Those two things are the major problems, not so much the other stuff.

Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,916
# 64
12-20-2012, 09:55 PM
Regarding the chained criticals - why not just decrease the Critical Damage on the mines so that a critting Dispersal Pattern produces still acceptable results?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 336
# 65
12-20-2012, 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
I don't mind changes to the Tric Mines, I just have a few worries:

1. The timeship consoles are really a major problem, because they freeze everybody, preventing ANY chance of a counter whatsoever, essentially guaranteeing a kill while using very little skill and effort. More than any changes to tric mines themselves, THIS needs to be looked at.

Even with these changes, the timeships will still have usage of these at their current levels. If they do stop using tric mines, they can still use something else. Maybe it won't be soon, but there WILL be something they'll use to a far far greater effect than they should all because of a console.

2. Chain critting. While not a player's fault, the fact that they can and do, is partially what makes them so wicked. I think that's the whole reason why tric torpedos don't hit mega-hard without being buffed somehow, because all that instant damage along with the disable and repel is why they were kept that way in the first place.

3. Things really won't change much even by doing all this. People will still probably tric bomb. They may not do as much damage, but they can still be buffed by consoles and more importantly, TAC BUFFs (including, extra crit chance and severity).

That's something to keep in mind, between tac buffs and tric consoles, the actual damage and crits won't really change all that much to be honest. It'll still be easy to hit 6 figure damages.

4. The nerf-bat might be swung too hard. This is particularly important to me, because I feel all strategies should be at least fairly even to use, in both risk and reward. It shouldn't be that whole teams of tric bombers can utterly destroy anything and everything in their way in PvE and PvP without slowing down. That's a huge issue.

BUT, if these are nerfed too hard, as others said, then they become little more than the joke they were at the get-go. No one would use em, and the whole point of the revamped mines would be kind of moot, at least for trics.



However, I don't think that bigger ships should get a PDS though. That would just ruin using any mines or HY torps at all. But maybe a more adaptive approach might be better.

Say...give a lot of larger enemies Polarize Hull (ESPECIALLY Borg cubes). That'd make them immune to tractors, while also allowing for a nice, free chunk of damage resistance.

A simpler way, would just be to make all enemies more resistant in PvE stuff, the more you used something. I don't mean like more resistance to cannon fire, but more like the disable from them, give the enemies more resistance the more you use it. And this would be a map-wide thing. So if you tric mine a borg cube, the next thing you try and use it on, would not be as affected.

That could also include the damage from ONLY trics (to prevent near-immunity to damage or anything). It might not remove tric bombing PvE stuff, but it'd at least make people strategize a little more.

I have more to say, but I'll hold for now.

The biggest thing though, is the time ship consoles, and the chain critting. Those two things are the major problems, not so much the other stuff.

Yeah, Tac's being able to buff Torps is stupid.

The major problem I see with increasing NPC Damage resitence is in timed optional missions in STF's. Cryptic would probably have to increase the time limit to compensate but I don't think anyone wants to be in an STF any longer than 6-10 minutes. Not to mention would make killing probes in KA and Assimilated Raptors/Warships in Cure a real pain, to say nothing of The Hive.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 238
# 66
12-21-2012, 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
And Tricos?

Was anyone seriously using Tricos before the changes to DPB?
Been existant in TSI/god premades sense season1.
Noone.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 318
# 67
12-21-2012, 12:11 PM
Personally I vote for "Tricobalt mines are not affected by dispersal patterns" ...

Just like the Hargh'Peng Torp, which is not affected by Torpedo Skills, but still worth using because of it's insanely high damage, this would become the case with trico mines.

No other complicated nerfing would be neccesary IMHO.
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 27
# 68
12-21-2012, 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
We've been watching and listening to the large amount of feedback that's come from the PvP community, and elsewhere, in regards to the astonishing amount of damage Tricobalt Mines have become capable of dealing since the Mine Revamp, and the recent Mine Console bug fix. For the most part, we held off on making any further changes to their functionality until more feedback and hands-on testing occurred, due to the fact that these weapons remain susceptible to counter, and come with a very steep cost of opportunity to be used effectively:

- They can be shot down (even accidentally).
- They can be outran.
- They have very lengthy cooldowns.
- Their damage is significantly reduced by shields, and an unshielded hit is statistically unlikely.
- Utilizing a Dispersal Pattern requires up to a Commander-rank Boff Slot.
- Getting the most out of them requires sacrificing Console and/or Doff slots to a dedicated build.

Despite these drawbacks, the amount of feedback we receive on a daily basis has kept the issue on our radar, and under tight scrutiny. After a recent series of internal tests, we've decided that a few changes are warranted, and will soon be carried out:

The following changes will appear in a future patch to Tribble (probably in early January):

- The damage dealt by Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced by 10% across-the-board.

- The damage variance of Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced from 20% to 5% (this will lead to more predictable damage ? fewer highs, fewer lows)

- The stealth value on Tricobalt Mines has been reduced by approximately 25% (this should allow them to be seen from about 1k further than previous).

We're also still in the process of considering some, or possibly all, of the following changes:

- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)

- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)

We're particularly interested in hearing feedback on these last two options, as we're still deliberating whether or not they are a necessity, or even a good idea.

After more testing and feedback, we may decide that the overall damage dealt by Tricobalts needs to be reduced even further at some point in the future. If it comes to that, we will also re-evaluate the cooldowns associated with these weapons to ensure that their overall combat viability remains strong.
The few changes you mentioned that you're implementing seem good enough to start. Adding in the splash damage is debatable. If we got splash damage from tricos can we expect splash from plasma mines? We already know both HY versions will hit friendly targets as well as the target.

I think the changes to dispersal pattern beta if universal may kill all mines in game. Why would I ever launch 16 transphasic or quantum mines when they damage is only double 4 of them? There was a time when NO ONE in any event PvP or PvE was running mines -- destroying DPB ruins the equipment and the BOFF slots. Why not make it so CRF3 only does 2x as much damage as your normal cannons? If it's not universal and this change only affects Tricobalts you're just pandering to the tricobalt haters and it's clear where Cryptic and PWE's intentions lie in taking the game forward: allowing a small but vocal group of players to control the game experience for everyone who's only evidence for anything being broken is anecdotal at best.

As far as the NPCs I'm not terribly worried about it, but I am curious why you need to implement this considering that the Borg Queen already does an excellent job of taking down mines. Can't you just give other NPC dreadnaughts the same AI that she has? It would at least make for more fun fleet alert missions haha.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,774
# 69
12-21-2012, 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
Yeah, Tac's being able to buff Torps is stupid.

The major problem I see with increasing NPC Damage resitence is in timed optional missions in STF's. Cryptic would probably have to increase the time limit to compensate but I don't think anyone wants to be in an STF any longer than 6-10 minutes. Not to mention would make killing probes in KA and Assimilated Raptors/Warships in Cure a real pain, to say nothing of The Hive.
Hmm...I dunno, I feel more along the lines of it'd make debuffing much more of a necessary thing, then just trying to DPS your way through everything without pause or care in an STF.

Making other classes more worthwhile, because a sci could use SNB if a boss suddenly starts unloading large amounts of buffs (see: Donatra), and then Sensor scan, maybe a Gravitic Anchor, etc. So the boss is weakened, and suddenly everyone can really start unloading on it.

Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 60
# 70
12-21-2012, 03:55 PM
Could I possibly throw out a suggestion that might be a bit easier to apply without breaking multiple aspects of the game?

Why not just add resistances to types of kinetic damage and have them scale up with more points into kinetic resistance?

For example... if I have 100 points into kinetic resistance, it should reduce the mine damage in half or possibly even more (depending on the way the figures drop) which would effectively fix the PvP aspects without breaking the PvE aspects.

This works in 2 fronts since it would mean those that don't invest into kinetic resist would need to keep an eye out on mines as their resistance isn't as high so they need other ways to take care of the issue and those that do invest points could take a hit if they put the points into it.

This coupled with fixing crit linking would be a nice solution I'd think.
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