Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,362
# 21
12-21-2012, 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Who are you calling a hippy Herbert??
I'm not the one putting the lives of the birds and the bees on one single planet above the value of all the lives of all the people of the Federation... Next you'll be running through the Academy grounds screaming "Soylent Green is people!" and scaring the cadets...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,902
# 22
12-21-2012, 04:11 PM
It doesn't matter if it's only one person, 600 people or a million, it is not the Federations right to decide another races destiny, it is in direct violation of the prime directive and the Federation is supposed to have evolved beyond raping planetary biospheres regardless of the needs of the many. The many have no more right to immortality than the Baku, less so because the Baku's immortality doesn't come at the cost of a world's biosphere. There is no reason why that world couldn't support colonies for those in most need of help so it comes down to a choice rather than a need. The Federation Councillor's and the Admiral's activities were illegal and any officer has a moral right and imperative to oppose orders he feels are improper, illegal or unjust. Oh how wonderful it would be to live in a universe where government and military leaders are incorruptible and always right, but that will never be the case so there are laws and regulations for dealing with leaders who act outside of the law, now and in the future.
Doherty didn't want the Enterprise anywhere near the system because he knew what he was doing was wrong, his only moment of redemption is when he finally tried to put a stop to the operation.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,500
# 23
12-22-2012, 02:45 AM
Pretty much of the same opinion here.

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JJ. Trek is just as canon and awesome as all other Trek, Get over it.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 24
12-22-2012, 02:59 AM
A single species on a planet ?

We are talking about ALL life
simply to buy a few more years for people who don't deserve it
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,538
# 25
12-22-2012, 06:18 AM
As an old saying goes, "possession is 9/10 of the law." It wasn't Federation Territory, therefore they had no right to it's resources. It doesn't matter whether the Ba'ku were native to the planet. It was their star system.

Anyways though, the story was a bit overdone for my tastes. Sure the morality tale concept was ok, but... way too overplayed.
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Last edited by markhawkman; 12-22-2012 at 06:20 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,362
# 26
12-22-2012, 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
It doesn't matter if it's only one person, 600 people or a million, it is not the Federations right to decide another races destiny,
Although I can't find the precise figure at the moment, there is reference to just how many species the Federation actively allowed to become extinct... It may or may not be the Federations 'right' to do so, but it is something which the Federation has done since Archer's days...

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
it is in direct violation of the prime directive
You really want to cite the Prime Directive, even though, as Admiral Dougherty pointed out, it did not apply to the situation as the Ba'ku were not native to the planet? Okay, let's see where that discussion takes us...

According to Rear Admiral Norah Satie on stardate 44769.2, Jean-Luc Picard had violated the Prime Directive a total of nine times since taking command of the USS Enterprise-D three and a half years prior.

Nine times! Wow, I thought the Prime Directive was a General Order which every Starfleet Officer swore to uphold at the cost of their own lives... I guess Jean-Luc had his fingers crossed when he took the oath. And if he's willing to violate it so many times(and no doubt countless others, by the events of Insurrection) he has absolutely no moral right to claim breach of the Prime Directive to berate and condescend to a superior officer, simply because he personally disagrees with his actions or the orders he has been given... (Orders which come from the Federation Council, not just ones made up by Dougherty)

Let's look at how Picard's actions were violating the Prime Directive in this instance:

The Prime Directive forbids Starfleet officers from "Taking actions which support one faction within a society over another"

Picard refused to assist Gowron, despite being personally requested to do so by Gowron, claiming that it was an internal Klingon affair, and it was not the Federation's place to intervene... How moral and upright the Captain was in that instance, yet when it cames to the Ba'ku and the Son'a (essentially the same situation) he had no issue in supporting one faction over another when he thought that doing so would get him laid...

Additionally, Picard and his Happy Gang were commissioned officers during their involvement. Sure, there was that nice scene where Picard took the pips from his collar, but what does that actually mean? Nothing. Today's military officers would routinely remove rank insignia from their uniforms prior to having them laundered, but doing so would not constitute a resignation of commission. It was clearly stated that while inside the Briar Patch, there would be no clear communication to Starfleet Command, so in reality, it would have been impossible for Picard and his officers to have tendered resignations and had those resignations accepted by Command, ergo, they were still commissioned officers, thus bound to uphold the Prime Directive (as they felt it applied) The fact they wore civilian clothes means nothing, as their rank is independent of their clothing, and in Generations, the senior officers reported directly to the bridge for active duty, while still wearing non-regulation clothing (Yes, they were wearing rank-appropriate naval uniforms, but as they were not Starfleet regulation uniforms, they were essentially just wearing costume's whilst carrying out official duties...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
the Federation is supposed to have evolved beyond raping planetary biospheres regardless of the needs of the many.
Using emotive language does nothing to change the facts of the situation as they were presented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
The many have no more right to immortality than the Baku, less so because the Baku's immortality doesn't come at the cost of a world's biosphere.
Oh, so the Ba'ku are allowed to keep the fountain of youth for themselves? Rapunzell's 'mother' tried that in Tangled, and morally speaking, she was in the wrong, and got what was coming to her...

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
There is no reason why that world couldn't support colonies for those in most need of help so it comes down to a choice rather than a need.
It was pointed out that the Son'a would not live long enough for natural exposure to the radiation to reverse their cellular damage... (why they had become so degenerated as a people was sadly never explored.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
The Federation Councillor's and the Admiral's activities were illegal and any officer has a moral right and imperative to oppose orders he feels are improper, illegal or unjust.
Illegal? Really? General Order 24 gives a starship Captain the ability to completely eradicate life from a planet if the justification requires. In this instance, extending the lives of billions, dare I say trillions of lives, totally validates the rendering of a single planet temporarily uninhabitable. Had the plan been allowed to play out, the Ba'ku would have been placed on the holoship unharmed, and removed from the planet, they were never meant to be left on the planet to die during the process of collecting the particles... It was only the interference of Picard which led to them being forcibly removed while conscious...

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
but that will never be the case so there are laws and regulations for dealing with leaders who act outside of the law, now and in the future.
Admiral Dougherty was not acting outside the law though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
Doherty didn't want the Enterprise anywhere near the system because he knew what he was doing was wrong
Wrong is a very strong word... It was definitely a 'dirty mission', but, it was being done with higher motives than an individual's personal gain or profit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
his only moment of redemption is when he finally tried to put a stop to the operation.
I think when he (continually) refused Ru'afo's offer of cosmetic treatment, he proved that he was not acting in any kind of selfish manner. He clearly said that he wanted to wait till they could share the benefits with all of the Federation. He was not only not doing it for himself personally, but he refused to benefit personally until everyone in the Federation could do so. If his being betrayed and murdered by Ru'afo was indeed his moment of redemption, then he should be posthumously viewed as a man redeemed. That said, as I've highlighted in this post, while he was undertaking a 'dirty mission', he did not compromise himself by partaking in the benefits of the mission while participating in the mission: His actions were as selfless as possible under the circumstances, given that he, as well as the rest of the Federation would have ultimately benefited from the metaphasic technology, but he was clearly unwilling to benefit personally, until everyone in the Federation benefited.

I understand that he was needed by the plot to be the counter to Picard, and to be 'the opposition for the good guys', but when you actually view his actions, he was not behaving selfishly, and not truly 'a bad guy'. He was just on the wrong side of the plot in that particular instance...

Last edited by marcusdkane; 12-22-2012 at 08:17 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,362
# 27
12-22-2012, 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
A single species on a planet ?

We are talking about ALL life
I never said that it was just a single species... And as above, General Order 24 allows a Starfleet Captain to eradicate ALL LIFE on a planet if they deem it necessary (and doing so is justifiable, unlike Garth doing it for the lols...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
We are talking about ALL life
simply to buy a few more years for people who don't deserve it
Who are you to determine that they don't deserve it?? We're not just talking about a few people, a planet, or even just all Starfleet Officers, but ALL the people in ALL the Federation. Trillions of lives. To say that "they don't deserve it" makes you no worse than Garth...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,362
# 28
12-22-2012, 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
As an old saying goes, "possession is 9/10 of the law."
We have a charge in the UK called Theft by Finding. EG Some guy is walking down the street and the clasp on his watch breaks. The watch falls to the floor, and not noticing, the guy carries on walking. Another guy comes along, sees the watch on the floor, picks it up, and then keeps it. In the eyes of the law, he has stolen the watch just as much, as if he'd either mugged the first guy and taken it, or walked into a jewelers, asked to try it on, and then ran out the door without paying...

Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
It wasn't Federation Territory, therefore they had no right to it's resources.
I haven't watched the movie in a while, so I'm a bit hazy on this... Dougherty explains 'the partnership' to Picard, and says which group have the planet, and the others have the technology. I think he says that "We have the planet, they have the technology." I may be wrong there, and am happy to be proven wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
It doesn't matter whether the Ba'ku were native to the planet.
The Ba'ku were nothing more than squatters...

Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Anyways though, the story was a bit overdone for my tastes. Sure the morality tale concept was ok, but... way too overplayed.
Totally agree with you there
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,902
# 29
12-22-2012, 08:40 AM
Using your argument if some stellar calamity rendered a dozen worlds desert leaving 100 trillion inhabitants in dire straits by your logic those worlds would have the right to displace humanity and strip Earth of it's oceans destroying it's ecosystem, because as you say, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
You keep clinging to Doherty's arguments as justification for his criminal actions, well the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Those times when the Enterprise violated the prime directive it usually was to intercede to prevent a races extinction and general order 24 was often threatened but never enacted.
The Son'a were in the state they were in because they were extending their lives using a primitive and inefficient means, the Son'a were exiled because they tried to usurp control of the Baku colony from their parents and in the time since rather than try to reconcile with their parents, they built up a criminal empire, enslaved two races, had dealings with the Federation's enemies while brooding and contemplating their revenge of stealing a world from their parents, they are in no way victims in this affair.
Doherty put on a good show of resisting the Son'as' offers of treatment but given the deplorable state the Son'a it's understandable, the Son'as' idea of treatment bears a closer resemblance to self mutilation than anything cosmetic. That doesn't mean Doherty wouldn't have partaken of the benefits of the metagenic radiation had they succeeded in stealing it, his altruism rings hollow.
It was never indicated anywhere that the Baku sought to keep this fountain of youth for themselves alone, it was a condition of the world on which they were content to remain, and anyone else willing to benefit could have come to live under the same conditions, there is no justification for destroying a planets biosphere simply to suit those who choose not to inconvenience themselves by remaining on the world where this energy exists. The Son'as' condition is essentially self inflicted and being a splinter group of the Baku would logically have less numbers than the Baku putting their needs and desires on even more shakey ground.

Last edited by maxvitor; 12-22-2012 at 09:34 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,538
# 30
12-22-2012, 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
We have a charge in the UK called Theft by Finding. EG Some guy is walking down the street and the clasp on his watch breaks. The watch falls to the floor, and not noticing, the guy carries on walking. Another guy comes along, sees the watch on the floor, picks it up, and then keeps it. In the eyes of the law, he has stolen the watch just as much, as if he'd either mugged the first guy and taken it, or walked into a jewelers, asked to try it on, and then ran out the door without paying...
The US has a similar law, but there's a catch: it only applies if you know who lost the item. But it's beside the point.
Quote:
I haven't watched the movie in a while, so I'm a bit hazy on this... Dougherty explains 'the partnership' to Picard, and says which group have the planet, and the others have the technology. I think he says that "We have the planet, they have the technology." I may be wrong there, and am happy to be proven wrong...

The Ba'ku were nothing more than squatters...
This is where things get complicated. Admiral Dougherty, and presumably other members of Starfleet command, considered the Ba'ku planet to be Federation territory. However, the Ba'ku settled on the planet in 2066. At the time, the entire solar system was completely uninhabited. Thus, by Real World teritorial law, the system was owned by the Ba'ku, not the Federation.

At least in 2375(when Insurrection took place), the Star Charts book claims they joined the Federation in 2378....
HAIL HYDRA!

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I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
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