Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 269
# 61
01-12-2013, 12:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
how come Scramble Sensors got canned but not the "ignores shields and can kill you" tractor repulsors didnt?

also... im still not quite understanding why nadeon got banned.



i remember the tsi funday also had banned scramble sensors, and we learned that it makes science team nearly useless.

which ended with more tactical teams and more engy teams going around

which made matches last longer.

cause and effect and all that stuff.
Well repulsors are fixed so why remove them they also are very simple to counter I laugh at repolsors!

If scrambles is fixed I say bring in Ralph and his 40 sec scramble spam!
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 62
01-12-2013, 03:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by omgrandalthor View Post
Well repulsors are fixed so why remove them they also are very simple to counter I laugh at repolsors!

If scrambles is fixed I say bring in Ralph and his 40 sec scramble spam!
if the issue of some powers that arnt supposed to jump is still around then yeah, ill agree scrambles shouldnt be allowed. otherwise. its a "needed" power to be allowed to be used.

i say "needed" in the sense that its a power deternt. it helps deter healing, extends, damage. it also is needed so the counter will be needed, ie science team.

it also gives tractor repulsors a "downside" where as it is now, there is absolutly no downside to taking them.

the use of science team then also forces people to think to use tactical team and engineering team.

elimnate scramble sensors and theres no reason for a team to have more then 2 science teams.

the then "open" use of a team power will mean more engineering teams and more double sets of tacitcal teams, the double tacitcal teams will nullify attack pattern betas/deltas

the free open use of engineering teams means VM will be almost useless and subsystem disables will be less effective.


the domino effect with the removal of a single power.


also, if ss is deemed to powerful, i say let ams be used. its actually "safer" then ss in all reguards (if the powers that shouldnt jump are jumping thing isnt an issue)

safer by my definition- ams can only be used once every 3 mins. and never lasts longer then 12 seconds. while scramble sensors can be up to 40 seconds used eveyr 30 seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?

Last edited by maicake716; 01-12-2013 at 03:26 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 499
# 63
01-12-2013, 03:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
if the issue of some powers that arnt supposed to jump is still around then yeah, ill agree scrambles shouldnt be allowed. otherwise. its a "needed" power to be allowed to be used.

i say "needed" in the sense that its a power deternt. it helps deter healing, extends, damage. it also is needed so the counter will be needed, ie science team.

it also gives tractor repulsors a "downside" where as it is now, there is absolutly no downside to taking them.

the use of science team then also forces people to think to use tactical team and engineering team.

elimnate scramble sensors and theres no reason for a team to have more then 2 science teams.

the then "open" use of a team power will mean more engineering teams and more double sets of tacitcal teams, the double tacitcal teams will nullify attack pattern betas/deltas

the free open use of engineering teams means VM will be almost useless and subsystem disables will be less effective.


the domino effect with the removal of a single power.


also, if ss is deemed to powerful, i say let ams be used. its actually "safer" then ss in all reguards (if the powers that shouldnt jump are jumping thing isnt an issue)

safer by my definition- ams can only be used once every 3 mins. and never lasts longer then 12 seconds. while scramble sensors can be up to 40 seconds used eveyr 30 seconds.
AMS can be > 12 seconds. On a lol build I have it up to 26.2.
-X-/Pandas - Pheo
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 64
01-12-2013, 03:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtremenoob1 View Post
AMS can be > 12 seconds. On a lol build I have it up to 26.2.
ah i thought it was bugged so it wasnt increased still..


its still the lesser of 2 evils compiared to scramble senors going up to 40+ seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 65
01-12-2013, 04:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
it also gives tractor repulsors a "downside" where as it is now, there is absolutly no downside to taking them.
That's a crazy thing to say. Every skill in the game competes for slots (especially Sci BOff powers, which aren't locked as rigidly into the offense/defense category the way Tac and Eng are) and has its own strengths and weaknesses that can be exploited, TBR is no exception. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of counters, and the opportunity cost for taking such a skill is actually very high.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 66
01-12-2013, 04:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
That's a crazy thing to say. Every skill in the game competes for slots (especially Sci BOff powers, which aren't locked as rigidly into the offense/defense category the way Tac and Eng are) and has its own strengths and weaknesses that can be exploited, TBR is no exception. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of counters, and the opportunity cost for taking such a skill is actually very high.
not really. it has 3 counters with the current ruleset and no concernable downside compaired to its usefulness.

scramble sensors would keep it in check. since scramble sensors isnt allowed, it has no hazzardous use to the user.

yes, that argument can be used about many powers the science brings, buts more compounded by the fact that tractor beam repulsors can still deal a great deal of damage ignoring shields with nothing the other team can do to stop it if the team using them is fully decked out in them.

polarize hull sure, until it ends and it can only be used for 15 seconds on the user, while tractor repulsors can hit up to 3 targets for full damage each.

attack pattern omega ignores the push, making it even more hazzardous to the guy using the omega.

heavy grav beam from the maco, misses more often then not and is usable only once every 3 mins if it hits.

shockwave, good luck getting close enough to hit the guy pushing you.



shockwave torps and scramble sensors are the only alternative to counter massive tractor pushes. and both of those have been removed from allowance.


no one thought extend shields would be used like it was until the funday, this is excatly whatll happen with tractor repulsors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 67
01-12-2013, 04:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
not really. it has 3 counters with the current ruleset and no concernable downside compaired to its usefulness.

scramble sensors would keep it in check. since scramble sensors isnt allowed, it has no hazzardous use to the user.

yes, that argument can be used about many powers the science brings, buts more compounded by the fact that tractor beam repulsors can still deal a great deal of damage ignoring shields with nothing the other team can do to stop it if the team using them is fully decked out in them.

polarize hull sure, until it ends and it can only be used for 15 seconds on the user, while tractor repulsors can hit up to 3 targets for full damage each.

attack pattern omega ignores the push, making it even more hazzardous to the guy using the omega.

heavy grav beam from the maco, misses more often then not and is usable only once every 3 mins if it hits.

shockwave, good luck getting close enough to hit the guy pushing you.



shockwave torps and scramble sensors are the only alternative to counter massive tractor pushes. and both of those have been removed from allowance.


no one thought extend shields would be used like it was until the funday, this is excatly whatll happen with tractor repulsors.
I'm not sure where to begin with this... first of all, there are a hell of a lot more than three counters to TBR (I don't know how you've arrived at such a specific number). It's a channeled skill that works in a very specific way and runs off the same subsystem every time. Knowledge is power!

If people are using TBR for the damage, they're going to have to fully commit, and this means they're likely Tacs with secondary damage specs. That's a squishy target right there. The damage will always be kinetic, so you know what resists you're looking for. That said I personally I don't see this massive TBR damage you're talking about, from what I understand the bugged Particle Gens were patched a long time ago.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 68
01-12-2013, 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
I'm not sure where to begin with this... first of all, there are a hell of a lot more than three counters to TBR (I don't know how you've arrived at such a specific number). It's a channeled skill that works in a very specific way and runs off the same subsystem every time. Knowledge is power!

If people are using TBR for the damage, they're going to have to fully commit, and this means they're likely Tacs with secondary damage specs. That's a squishy target right there. The damage will always be kinetic, so you know what resists you're looking for. That said I personally I don't see this massive TBR damage you're talking about, from what I understand the bugged Particle Gens were patched a long time ago.
i arrived at that specific number because it takes a stun or removal of aux power to end the tbr. theres only one stun- shockwave, and there is no 100% sure way to drain/disable aux except through the heavy grav beam.

there are soft counters- vm, and target subsytems, and tykens rift. vm isnt a sure thing because it has to cycle through the powers, target subsystems is a % to disable and tykens in its current form against season pvp'rs isnt a sure thing on power drain.

then theres only one damage and movement immunity- polarize hull, and 1 movement immunity- omega.

what other 100% counters then the 3 i mentioned?

its not different then when it was discovered the extend shields issue during the funday, its a mundane power until theres nothing left to counter it like extend shields was.

since ss wont be allowed- science teams wont be as "needed" which means more engy teams and tac teams. with more engy teams vm usefulness goes down.

cause an effect. 1 powers removal has huge ripple effects.

also, if scramble sensors was fixed, why was it determined to not be allowed? is it because its "not fun"? if thats the case, i move to disallow tractor beam repulsors because theyre "not fun"
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?

Last edited by maicake716; 01-12-2013 at 05:05 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 69
01-12-2013, 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
what other counters then the 3 i mentioned? there is no other guarenteed counter to tbr other then the 3 i mentioned and the shockwave torp. there is one deterent, scramble sensors, and 1 soft counter- draining their aux power.

its not different then when it was discovered the extend shields issue during the funday, its a mundane power until theres nothing left to counter it like extend shields was.



also, if scramble sensors was fixed, why was it determined to not be allowed? is it because its "not fun"? if thats the case, i move to disallow tractor beam repulsors because theyre "not fun"
With a proper Flow spec the drain isn't a "soft" counter, it's a hard one: TBR for damage depends crucially on low-aux, meaning one good drain or a polaron proc will knock it off. You can also simply take the system out directly with one of the many available subsys disables. Two more of the best counters don't even require BOff slots, BfI and Evasives. You get your best return on Evasives by simply switching to 100 Engines.

You can also simply turn and fire off a nuke; since he's a Tac who's had to spec heavily into TBR to get the damage (assuming it's still possible) he'll go down fast.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 499
# 70
01-12-2013, 06:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
With a proper Flow spec the drain isn't a "soft" counter, it's a hard one: TBR for damage depends crucially on low-aux, meaning one good drain or a polaron proc will knock it off. You can also simply take the system out directly with one of the many available subsys disables. Two more of the best counters don't even require BOff slots, BfI and Evasives. You get your best return on Evasives by simply switching to 100 Engines.

You can also simply turn and fire off a nuke; since he's a Tac who's had to spec heavily into TBR to get the damage (assuming it's still possible) he'll go down fast.
SNB doesn't seem to currently clear TBR. I could be mistaken but just the other day it failed to clear it. However I will verify later today when I test some other things.

*edit* damage isn't extremely significant but it's also not insignificant. IE, I was tooling with a DEM3/CRF1/TBR1/BO2/aux2batt brel that was extremely effective at snuffing cruisers. It sucked against escorts though ;9 And there was no reason to use a brel over hegh'ta except I choose to use the brel.
-X-/Pandas - Pheo

Last edited by xtremenoob1; 01-12-2013 at 06:17 AM.
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