Borticus I am sort of aiming this one at you... I know you likely have a ton of other stuff to work on. Just thought I would throw this out there anyway.
We had an interesting conversation in Opvp this evening about torps, and how they work or don't work...
First off let me say the torpedo changes you have made over the last 6 or so months (what ever its been) have all been great imo. I think there more usable then ever.
However having said that... I think the game is at a point where torps mostly don't work... so DPS escorts and cruiser really don't run them... they are mostly used by sci... in full on torp boat setups. Anyway there are lots of reasons for that... mostly it comes down to opportunity costs with torps. In order to make the weapons effective in general you must commit to them... in general 2+ torps and 2+ doffs dedicated to torps... in order to ensure a fire rate that will provided a payoff, in the face of high shield caps and regens.
Recently there has been 2 new torpedo techs that we have seen in the game... 1 is the shifting cool down system used on the Time Torpedo... and the other is the Ammo system used on the omega torpedo launcher.
I would just like you to think about the following.....
What if all torps had 1s cool downs... and all torps had Ammo systems.
This would greatly reduce the Opportunity cost of running torps... by front loading there dps instead of staggering it.
Here is my proposal, this is My ideal torpedo system
- All torps regen 1 ammo every 6s
- Torpedo doffs have a chance to regen ammo.... working either as
1) 5% - 10% -15% -20% per level to regen 1 ammo ; or
2) all levels 20% chance.. to regen 1 2 3 or 4 ammo (this may be OP option 1 might work better)
- Long duration torps would NOT have ammo... but work more like the lobi time torp
1) trics... 20s cool down... 60s when HY is applied
2) Breen cluster... 20s cool down (60% the payload it has now)... HY applied increases number of mines (HY 3 = 60% more then current ... HY 2 40%... HY 1 20%) HY applies 45s cool down... spread fire 1 2 or 3 60% yield clusters 45s cool down
- reduce base dmg on all torps to account for there new rapid fire ways (this would need to be tweeked)... this would reduce dmg on a full torp boat a bit... but it would free up a ton of weapon slots for energy / mines ect
- Photons... 8 Ammo charges max
- Quantums... 6 ammo charges max
- Plasma... 6 ammo charges max
- chroniton... 4 ammo charges max
- Transphasic... 2 ammo charges max (this is dontdrunkimshoot idea)... 2 charges but with much higher base dmg, making them the weapon of cannon, a high dmg slower firing weapon. (another option is to keep the base dmg lower as it is now... but give them a Phasic HY verison, perhaps similer to the omega torp, with defense or health and good shield pen.... so a HY 3 would hit base wise like a current quantum but have say 20 30 and 40% bonuses to shield pen per HY level)
- HY patterns would no longer fire more then one torp... but would increase the base dmg of the torps (remember we are reducing dmg to start, so this won't be one shot wonder time... but would need to be worth slotting, perhaps the proc effects of the torps could also be increased with hy patterns, or even added in the case of quantum and photon.)
- Spread patterns, a few options for these... multiple ammo use could be hard for people to manage... perhaps a simple multi target firing with 70-80% of the HY version dmg and any proc effects would work well.
Anyway just some thoughts on a torpedo overhaul. (again)
I think though that if torps where made to be more viable in more builds we would see t here use go up... and the proliferation of the all energy builds would reduced... and people woulds top wining about that 3rd ensign tac slot on the defaint. lol
Last edited by antoniosalieri; 12-22-2012 at 12:45 AM.
The Omega Torp is horrible for a torpboat unless aft mounted.
Folks aren't going to give up a Tac console for a torp on a gunboat, so if you look at increasing the overall damage of the torp without the console - those that do use them, will be doing even that much more damage.
Much like using a torp is situational, the various torps themselves are situational.
With the possibility of getting the AKHG set, you may see more Feds using torps rather than just KDF guys flying their Feds.
Don't forget the change to Nadeon working with torps other than just Photon.
BO the shields down, CRF the -DR, and that THY hits naked-debuffed hull.
Cause them to burn a buff/cleanse out of order because they got hit by one of your special love bullets.
The loss of DPS one may find from putting a torp on a gunboat is along the lines of the the loss you'd get putting a DHC on a torpboat... tac consoles? skill points? Unless you build for both, either's going to not feel quite right.
Running torps and guns...is basically a form of rainbow.
It goes on and on and on... and I should confess, should have confessed at the start - that I'm highly biased, lol. I love torps(and mines) - I suck rotten eggs when it comes to DHCs. I'm trying it again, trying to get better with them on one of my toons, but man oh man - I just hate them. I have much more fun on my torp Vor'cha than I do on my gun Qin.
Willard the Rat, Klingon, Sci (60), U.S.S. Tong Vey, Geneva Command Battlecruiser (FT6), Inner Circle
Meena, Ferasan, Tac (56), I.K.S. vagh SuD bas, B'rel Retrofit Bird-of-Prey (T5U), Ho'ragh [WIP] No-Fleet, T5U B'rel Retrofit Build
torpedos in game are terrible, a majority of players dont use them at all because they tend to only take away from energy damage potential, and simply are incomparable with cruisers completely. it cant be intentional that torps are so underused in game, its in direct conflict with canon. like virusdancer said, Running torps and guns is basically a form of rainbow.
quantums have some use for escort and raider alpha strikes, but have an abysmal success rate. seeing as photons only fire more often but do less damage per hit, they are worthless in comparison. transphasics for tranny boats specialize at chiping away hull faster then a target can heal, and plasma boats sort of do the same thing, only their damage is easier to mitigate, but burning an HE early can be a nice effect from them. chronos are used for thier slow proc, thier damage is irelivent and thier fireing rate is slow. these also arent anything like they are in canon, annoyingly. tric torps are harmless and swat able.
well thats a sorry state of things isnt it. a FULL overhawl is in order, and has been for more then 2 years. what were torpedoes like in canon?
self guided weapons- they technically should not have firing arcs, but i understand the need for them for balance reasons though. higher base fire arc would be appropriate
bursting launchers- basically all torp launchers in the mid to late 24th century had some bursting capability, weather they could load up 10 or more at a time, or just 3 or 4. the charges the omega torp have are a perfect way to represent this in game.
damage to shields- they are fired at shielded targets all the time, for them to only do 1/4 damage to shields, before the massive amount of shield resistance takes even more, is absurd, and the opposite of canon.
the omega torp is seriously the closest thing to ok, or pretty good a torp has been like ever in game. partly because its works closer to cannon, but also because its an effective weapon. it should be a model for a torpedo overhawl, with some additional changes. at the very least we know this core tech exists to do this now, nothing from scrach should need to me made
1 all torps in game should have a certain number of charges and reload speed based on what type of torp they are
2 all torp damage should be cut in half across the board
3 torps should deal 75% damage to shileds, not 25%
4 torps should have a 135 base fireing arc
5 the rate of fire between charges should very between types of torps from .1 to 1 second
6 HY and TS would have to be overhauled to do something different in light of the change to torps
Hrmm, perhaps if they were to offer both - redo the Rapid and add Rapids that function as suggested, while avoiding the charge aspect/etc on regular ol' torps?
Actually, in a lot of ways this would greatly improve the effectiveness of Torpedo Boats, as well as expanding their options RE: DOffs. Since the fire-rate of torpedoes increases, having multiple launchers becomes an asset as you'd be able to sustain a potentially tremendous amount of pressure. Even one launcher would actually be potentially threatening even without a power.
Torpedoes are fine. Gameplay abilities overall, and in particular tactial abilites, are likely not meant to be spammed to gain the greatest effect.
If you aren't being succesful landing torpedoes on hull, probably better to question why that is so then to just say. "well it is so, therefore my torpedoes suck"
And really? Opportunity cost? What do you think that means? Actually I won't even check back so don't bother. The cost to run a torpedo is nominal. If the energy weapons and abilites are being applied correctly. If not well I guess it WOULD seem excessive.
Watching Tacs play attrition online just attempting to slowly grind down shields or cause enough bleed damage to hulls to win a match may be the first hint that the issue isn't with torpedoes.