Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,290
# 61
12-25-2012, 08:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
The Enterprise-F is an Odyssey Tac cruiser. The original Odyssey was not the "Enterprise"..



Irrelevant. A performance car based on a family car that nobody really even knows about, let alone cares about. It's a direct contradiction to your "performance car being dragged down by it's humble roots" comparison. There are many such stories in the automotive industry. Ever heard of the Pontiac GTO? How about the humble LeMans that the GTO was based on that nobody's ever heard of?



Not to someone who doesn't want to pay any money, there aren't.



And what're you basing that on?

Again, we're talking about ships that can have anything adjusted on them. If they want to make class-specific variations for the C-store, nothing's stopping them. The free ship shouldn't be a requirement for filling voids in the KDF line-up. That's asinine.
Honestly, if you don't want to pay in, you can take what you get and live with it-and that's me being NICE, 'cause in the world we live in, it's ass gas or cash, nobody rides for free-if you won't contribute, you shouldn't be trying to influence conditions because you do not have, and won't have until you do contribute, a stake.

I've got a stake in this-I pay in, I care about the faction & Game and can prove it with my receipts.

But that DOES explain why you insist on ignoring the business side and profit motive-you want what you want, but you don't want to contribute to get it.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

A Festival of Blood and Fire!

Blaming PvP for nerfs is like blaming Eudromaeosauria for today's urban crime rates.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 62
12-25-2012, 08:18 PM
If you think I don't pay for things in the game, you're way off the mark. My collector's box, my HEC, my Steamrunner, both of my Nebulas, both of my Excelsiors, my Fed DN, my fleet Tor'Kaht, my tier 4 Tor'Kaht (Which I purchased while it was a Vor'Cha skin), the BoP I purchased just for the quad cannons, my 700 day vet status--they all beg to differ.

And that's just the stuff I've purchased on my account...

I'm hardly ignoring the business aspect of the game. I'm saying the business aspect that you're envisioning makes no sense. If you give the population a free ship that does things that nothing else in the KDF fleet can do, why would they then turn around and buy the bundle from the c-store?

If you give them a nice-looking ship that's reasonably decent (unlike the Bortas) at a basic role (Battlecruiser) without anything special, people will think "Wow, this is nice. But I wish it had----"..

And that's when you give them what they ask for, and then they'll buy it.

The Bortas was a disaster. But it was a disaster because:

1) They didn't listen. They gave us a ship that didn't play like a KDF ship. It played like a Fed Starcruiser with token canon slots that were useless.

2) They didn't listen. When they released it as a C-store ship, they didn't fix the problems that existed in the first place that made everyone hate it.

And then, because of the above, they blame the playerbase for not buying something that didn't appeal to them at all?

That's not how you run a business, virtual or otherwise. This is coming from someone that's managed a small retail storefront for 12 years...

Last edited by wunjee; 12-25-2012 at 08:21 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,290
# 63
12-25-2012, 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
If you think I don't pay for things in the game, you're way off the mark.

I'm hardly ignoring the business aspect of the game. I'm saying the business aspect that you're envisioning makes no sense. If you give the population a free ship that does things that nothing else in the KDF fleet can do, why would they then turn around and buy the bundle from the c-store?

If you give them a nice-looking ship that's reasonably decent (unlike the Bortas) at a basic role (Battlecruiser) without anything special, people will think "Wow, this is nice. But I wish it had----"..

And that's when you give them what they ask for, and then they'll buy it.

The Bortas was a disaster. But it was a disaster because:

1) They didn't listen. They gave us a ship that didn't play like a KDF ship. It played like a Fed Starcruiser with token canon slots that were useless.

2) They didn't listen. When they released it as a C-store ship, they didn't fix the problems that existed in the first place that made everyone hate it.

And then, because of the above, they blame the playerbase for not buying something that didn't appeal to them at all?

That's not how you run a business, virtual or otherwise. This is coming from someone that's managed a small retail storefront for 12 years...
and you think, in a market flooded with cruisers, that another one is a good idea-when the demand's for something else, and you say MY model doesn't make sense???

Seriously? LOOK AT DEMAND. there's no demand for another cruiser in the KDF, and what desire there is, isn't for a cruiser that looks, but doesn't play, like a Bird of Prey-the demand is for a K'tinga, or a D-7 based variant in the cruiser side, with some for an improved Negh'var or Vor'cha.

What you're offering as a taster won't go down well-it'll get the same kind of reaction the Bortas did-only this time, they won't drive on with it anyway, they'll probably drop the project AND blame the playerbase.

The problem you're missing, is that aside from a single episode (and one line IN that episode), what people SEE is a Bird of Prey, not a Cruiser. what you're looking to offer is a Cruiser with a thin skin, average turn, and what that translates to, is offering a slow Bird of Prey with no Battlecloak and **** handling.

net result is likely to be the same reaction the Bortas got-only this time it'll kill the project after the event's over-nothing to salvage, congratulations mission fail.

The ship needs to be tailored to demand, it doesn't need to be overpowering, but it DOES need to have a sweetener that gets people talking about it in FAVOURABLE terms.

Your model doesn't do that. It's like putting a Ferrari body on a delivery-truck chassis, then wondering why neither ferrari drivers, nor delivery truck drivers, want it.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

A Festival of Blood and Fire!

Blaming PvP for nerfs is like blaming Eudromaeosauria for today's urban crime rates.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 64
12-25-2012, 08:46 PM
Quote:
and you think, in a market flooded with cruisers, that another one is a good idea-when the demand's for something else, and you say MY model doesn't make sense???
So, you want to give them a ship that fills holes in the KDF ship line. That's awfully noble of you, but where does that leave room for a C-store ship? Let alone a pack of C-store ships?

It doesn't.

That's why you give the FREE ship as a "ship that has potential", but if they want to fill that potential, they have to buy the C-store variant(s).

You keep comparing it to the Bortas as a reason why it'd fail, except it'd be nothing like the Bortas in the areas that made the Bortas fail. Bortas failed because it was a fat, slow, useless pig that was decent at NOTHING..and the C-store ships weren't much better. A battlecruiser-based K'Vort would share NOTHING with the Bortas except it's seating. The seating on the Bortas isn't why it failed.

Quote:
Seriously? LOOK AT DEMAND. there's no demand for another cruiser in the KDF, and what desire there is, isn't for a cruiser that looks, but doesn't play, like a Bird of Prey-the demand is for a K'tinga, or a D-7 based variant in the cruiser side, with some for an improved Negh'var or Vor'cha.
Which is why the C-store ships would branch off from the FREE cruiser to become things that people would actually pay for, unlike the Bortas variants..

If you give people everything they need for free, there's no reason for them to buy it. Again, that's noble, but it's not how you run a business..

Quote:
The problem you're missing, is that aside from a single episode (and one line IN that episode)
Two times (at least), in the very episode this event will be "celebrating"..I guess that doesn't mean much tho, huh?

"Hey, let's base an event on Yesterday's Enterprise--and then make it NOTHING like Yesterday's Enterprise!"

Brilliant idea there..

Quote:
net result is likely to be the same reaction the Bortas got-only this time it'll kill the project after the event's over-nothing to salvage, congratulations mission fail.
Except it shares none of the Bortas' faults. You know, the things that made the Bortas fail. Like being a huge, lumbering, slow whale...

Quote:
The ship needs to be tailored to demand,
The C-STORE variants need to be tailored to demand, because that's where Cryptic/PWE are going to be making their money. NOT on the free one. The free one needs to be little more then a toy to whet the public's desire for something that looks as nice, but is a little more specialized.

Just like the Odyssey.

Quote:
Your model doesn't do that. It's like putting a Ferrari body on a delivery-truck chassis, then wondering why neither ferrari drivers, nor delivery truck drivers, want it.
But it will make people who like the styling go buy a Ferrari, and the people who need a delivery truck go buy a delivery truck...

Last edited by wunjee; 12-25-2012 at 08:50 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,290
# 65
12-25-2012, 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
So, you want to give them a ship that fills holes in the KDF ship line. That's awfully noble of you, but where does that leave room for a C-store ship? Let alone a pack of C-store ships?

It doesn't.

That's why you give the FREE ship as a "ship that has potential", but if they want to fill that potential, they have to buy the C-store variant(s).
Problem: this won't ever GET to that point.
Quote:
You keep comparing it to the Bortas as a reason why it'd fail, except it'd be nothing like the Bortas in the areas that made the Bortas fail. Bortas failed because it was a fat, slow, useless pig that was decent at NOTHING..and the C-store ships weren't much better. A battlecruiser-based K'Vort would share NOTHING with the Bortas except it's seating. The seating on the Bortas isn't why it failed.
Look, I GET that you want a cruiser with the seating of the Bortas, but this is the wrong project for that. If it looked like a cruiser, it wouldn't be. Problem is, this won't LOOK RIGHT for the role, people will compare it not to other CRUISERS, but to BoP performance spec-and there, it fails. (hell, it's mediocre-to-poor for BATTLECRUISERS)

The root of my problem with your proposal is expectation. it looks like a Big bird of prey, people are going to want it to ACT like one-if instead it acts like a slightly crippled Vor'cha, that's ALL that they're going to SEE- "Super Failbop", not a cruiser that could be made decent, but a failed Bird of Prey that goes the wrong direction in it's design.

The Bortas would have been FINE as a Federation cruiser that looks like a Federation cruiser, it might even have been fine as a "racial" cruiser, it failed because of expectations. this situation has the same peril, regardless of it not sharing precisely the same mechanical drawbacks.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

A Festival of Blood and Fire!

Blaming PvP for nerfs is like blaming Eudromaeosauria for today's urban crime rates.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 66
12-25-2012, 09:09 PM
Quote:
Problem: this won't ever GET to that point.
And you know this how? Can I take a look into your magic portal of future sight?

Quote:
If it looked like a cruiser, it wouldn't be.
Quote:
The root of my problem with your proposal is expectation. it looks like a Big bird of prey, people are going to want it to ACT like one
Put an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer and a Ticonderoga-class cruiser side-by-side and tell me they don't look alike.

Since when do aesthetics define a role?

I have not seen a ship in this game that failed because it looked like it should've been something else. The Bortas failed because it didn't perform. Plain as day. It didn't perform well in it's free version and it didn't perform well in it's c-store versions. It had no real purpose, even in it's c-store platforms. That's why it failed.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,290
# 67
12-25-2012, 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
And you know this how? Can I take a look into your magic portal of future sight?





Put an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer and a Ticonderoga-class cruiser side-by-side and tell me they don't look alike.

Since when do aesthetics define a role?

I have not seen a ship in this game that failed because it looked like it should've been something else. The Bortas failed because it didn't perform. Plain as day. It didn't perform well in it's free version and it didn't perform well in it's c-store versions. It had no real purpose, even in it's c-store platforms. That's why it failed.
funny thing, I lived up the road from what is now the home-port of the USS Nimitz. An Arleigh Burke looks NOTHING like a Tico above the water-line, so your point is invalid.

as to the rest; yes, it didn't perform...up the level of a KDF Battle Cruiser.

It was fine for a Federation cruiser.

expectations.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

A Festival of Blood and Fire!

Blaming PvP for nerfs is like blaming Eudromaeosauria for today's urban crime rates.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 68
12-25-2012, 10:50 PM
Quote:
as to the rest; yes, it didn't perform...up the level of a KDF Battle Cruiser.
No, it didn't perform at all. Period. It was terrible.

It's not even classified as a battlecruiser. It's classified as a "Heavy Battlecruiser", as is the Negh'Var. So one would have expectations of a relatively slow-turning ship to begin with. But the Bortas wasn't even relatively slow-turning. It's flat immobile.

The comments that were common when the Bortas were released were "Why would the KDF operate a ship this big?"

"Expectations" were for the ship to not exist at all..
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,290
# 69
12-25-2012, 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
No, it didn't perform at all. Period. It was terrible.

It's not even classified as a battlecruiser. It's classified as a "Heavy Battlecruiser", as is the Negh'Var. So one would have expectations of a relatively slow-turning ship to begin with. But the Bortas wasn't even relatively slow-turning. It's flat immobile.

The comments that were common when the Bortas were released were "Why would the KDF operate a ship this big?"

"Expectations" were for the ship to not exist at all..
I agree with you on the Bort, by the way-but I still think you're going up the wrong tree on the K'Vort. I expect we're both tired of me enumerating why I think yours is a bad idea.

Not to mention everyone ELSE who's read the last three pages or so...lol.

IMHO, I expect what we are going to see will bear exactly NO resemblance to what each of us is advocating, or if it bears SOME resemblance, it's only to a certain point (one of the reasons I used 'Ranges' of hull numbers instead of setting a specific value).

I DO, however, expect I'm closer to being right on this, than you are in terms of what we're going to see, but that's prognostication, and nobody can predict the future who isn't reading the designer's and developer's notes.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

A Festival of Blood and Fire!

Blaming PvP for nerfs is like blaming Eudromaeosauria for today's urban crime rates.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,693
# 70
12-25-2012, 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
and you think, in a market flooded with cruisers, that another one is a good idea-when the demand's for something else, and you say MY model doesn't make sense???
KDF have few battlecruisers, discounting the Bortas there are only the Negh'Var and Vor'cha Retrofit, that is 5 and the Fleet versions dont count because they are not exactly openly available.

So your market is flooded with what? the Bortas?

Sure, BoP only have the B'rel and Hegh'ta but its hard to make BoP variations because they dont have fixed stations, they are all universal and only the Raptors have less options because there isnt a C-store one and only the Qin exists but the Guramba is pretty close to one.

KDF shipyards isnt Starfleet Shipyards, saying there isnt a market for battlecruisers because its flooded is a absurd statement since the only C-Store option there is, its the Bortas line ... like pretty much every single type of ships the KDF have, it also only gets one C-Shop version at General.

And I dont want a BoP, I have a B'rel and a Hegh'ta, I want something with a hull on it.
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