Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 71
12-25-2012, 11:40 PM
I find myself agreeing with patrickngo's argument. The market for a battlecruiser is pretty tepid, unless it's for, as patrickngo said, a K't'inga or Vor'cha type battlecruiser.

When it comes to the science ship concept. . .I don't personally care if it's a 'dedicated science ship' or a BoP with a strong sci bias (aux power, etc). At this point, KDF needs competitive sci options. . .so as long as the ship stats have something to offer beyond what the Vo'quv, Varanus, and existing BoPs, it should sell fairly well. There's quite a wide-open field when it comes to that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 191
# 72
12-26-2012, 04:24 AM
K'Vort is an escort, period. Look at all the other games it's been features in and the original concept. Clearly an escort class ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 191
# 73
12-26-2012, 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
I find myself agreeing with patrickngo's argument. The market for a battlecruiser is pretty tepid, unless it's for, as patrickngo said, a K't'inga or Vor'cha type battlecruiser.

When it comes to the science ship concept. . .I don't personally care if it's a 'dedicated science ship' or a BoP with a strong sci bias (aux power, etc). At this point, KDF needs competitive sci options. . .so as long as the ship stats have something to offer beyond what the Vo'quv, Varanus, and existing BoPs, it should sell fairly well. There's quite a wide-open field when it comes to that.
Share your concern on Sci ships, we do have a lack of em. I personally dislike the Varanus, I even consider it a sub-standard ship for the KDF. Wish we had more choice on pure Sci ships like the Feds have. For that reason I got myself a Temporal Sci ship and have to be honest, the thing is sweet! Just a pity it's a lockbox ship and not a KDF-factioned ship...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,037
# 74
12-26-2012, 04:43 AM
Oh dear, I just posted in this thread a couple of days ago and reading it now makes my head hurt so much I just want to leave again.

Just my two cents regarding what appears to be the current main focus of the thread.

Pro Battlecruiser:
-it was referred to as such
-it was used in compbat situations several times
-it maneuverd as a battlecruiser in every episode it was in (unless it was stainding still)

Con Battlecruiser:
-can't think of anything right now

Pro Science ship
-Cryptic made the Nebula one even though they could've just made it a cruiser
-in DS9 "Penumbra", a K'Vort was used for intelligence operations
-K'Vorts were not used as frontline ships during the Dominion War, just like Intrepids and Novas

[however given the ships' forward-focused armaments they mught have just as well been helpless against swarms of small JH fighters and not used for that reason; K'vorts with their forward heavy guns always reminded me of a Jagdtiger in space]

Con Science ships:
-it would mean the Klingons regularly used groups of science ships in combat, which seems pointless

My personal position

I agree there's a lack of a science-focused ships...I mean there's a reason why I made a fuss about it over the last couple of years and two threads over the last couple of months.

However I'm not sure the K'vort would be ideal ship for this function.
I'd like it very much if the K'Vort were a science-focused cruiser with a blue LtC.
It would probably work very well as a modernization of the older version that was used as a combat ship in the TNG era.
The Vor'cha most likely took the K'vort's place and the existing ships were retrofitted for other purposes.
But as a ship that's first and foremost a science ship?
Such a request reminds me of the idea to make the Nebula and/or Ambassador an escort because there were not enough escorts around.
It just makes no sense to me to just grab one of the next ships in line and force it into a function where there is a deficiency in the ship roster ATM.

I'll grab an aspirin now and leave this thread alone again.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,658
# 75
12-27-2012, 02:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Oh dear, I just posted in this thread a couple of days ago and reading it now makes my head hurt so much I just want to leave again.

Just my two cents regarding what appears to be the current main focus of the thread.

Pro Battlecruiser:
-it was referred to as such
-it was used in compbat situations several times
-it maneuverd as a battlecruiser in every episode it was in (unless it was stainding still)

Con Battlecruiser:
-can't think of anything right now

Pro Science ship
-Cryptic made the Nebula one even though they could've just made it a cruiser
-in DS9 "Penumbra", a K'Vort was used for intelligence operations
-K'Vorts were not used as frontline ships during the Dominion War, just like Intrepids and Novas

[however given the ships' forward-focused armaments they mught have just as well been helpless against swarms of small JH fighters and not used for that reason; K'vorts with their forward heavy guns always reminded me of a Jagdtiger in space]

Con Science ships:
-it would mean the Klingons regularly used groups of science ships in combat, which seems pointless

My personal position

I agree there's a lack of a science-focused ships...I mean there's a reason why I made a fuss about it over the last couple of years and two threads over the last couple of months.

However I'm not sure the K'vort would be ideal ship for this function.
I'd like it very much if the K'Vort were a science-focused cruiser with a blue LtC.
It would probably work very well as a modernization of the older version that was used as a combat ship in the TNG era.
The Vor'cha most likely took the K'vort's place and the existing ships were retrofitted for other purposes.
But as a ship that's first and foremost a science ship?
Such a request reminds me of the idea to make the Nebula and/or Ambassador an escort because there were not enough escorts around.
It just makes no sense to me to just grab one of the next ships in line and force it into a function where there is a deficiency in the ship roster ATM.

I'll grab an aspirin now and leave this thread alone again.
Do we have a certainty that the K'Vort IS the next in line? that there will BE a next in line?

Second thing I'd point out, is that old Marine saying: "You can't kill what you can't hit". Sensor analysis and subsystem targeting are both functions of accuracy, and force-multiplication tends to appeal to Warriors. (why else would the KDF even USE the Cloak, much less stuff it into every chassis native to their inventory, even ones where it's only marginal?)

Just because a state/nation doesn't go in much for "pure research" doesn't mean they're incapable of building scientific equipment. Lots of people forget that.

all of that is prelude to this:

Why wouldn't the KDF, if it HAD "science-ship-equivalents" use them extensively? Strategically, it makes sense to do that, if you're a 'pure warrior' or 'very warlike' culture, you're likely going to use every advantage you can get-esp. if you're angled toward 'conquest' by nature, rather than 'defense and diplomacy' by nature.

It's kind of the age-old question of "If I can't SEE my enemy, how can shoot him?" ON the whole, we have the best cruisers in the game, bar none...and the worst single cruiser in the game (the Bort's the worst). We do not need to race to the bottom here by adding a sub-par cruiser to the list, nor is it desirable to do so from the angle of bringing favourable (meaning good) attention to the faction.

the problem remains: It looks like a Bird of Prey. people are going to expect it to FLY like a Bird of Prey. A cruiser with no Battlecloak, no universals (or only one), 30k hull and a 10 turn-rate is 'mediocre' by KDF standards-by Federation standards it would be a world-shaker, but here it's mediocre. it sure as death ain't gonna fly like a BoP if it's lugging eight weapons slots on a turn rate of 10 with no BC.

Which means it's going to get that "The bird of prey with no turn" reputation-a bad one, in other words.

I don't think we need another mediocrity on the list, I really don't.

As yourself why, in universe, the KDF would develop, fund, and adopt a larger-than-average Bird of Prey design-or a design that resembles one? This is the Empire, which kept using the basic layout of the D-7 for over a CENTURY (and is still producing it), styling and bodywork shops probably don't get much business from the central government, nor innovation-for-it's-own-sake, esp. if the resultant design is no better than EXISTING platforms that don't require extensive tooling up to produce, because they're already in service.

so...what would you build a LARGE ship that looks like a Bird of Prey for, if it isn't a bird of prey?

This is why a LOT of people posting here favour something OTHER than an average-to-mediocre Cruiser design for the K'Vort-out in the real world, the TNG folks outright stated the shots were done with substitutes because they didn't have the models on-time for the Cruisers they WANTED in the shots-i.e. it was a placeholder, because of money issues at the studio. (Remember, TNG was direct-to-syndication, no Network support.)

But...we're stuck with the image. So make it a BIG bird of Prey, some say, others say "Raptor", a couple folks said "Destroyer" (somewhere between a Raptor and a Cruiser, like the Pegh'gu or however you spell it).

a few of us suggested a different direction-make it the KDF equivalent, the KLINGON equivalent of a Vesta-but without the hangar bays and WITH the uni-console layout of a Bird of Prey, along with the Battlecloak and weps layout (4 front, 2 rear for six total weapons, just like a real science ship only forward firing per Klingon doctrine). A ship with Subsystem targeting, turn rate of around 15 or so (so it turns tighter than a Vor'cha or on a par with a Raptor or Fed Sci ship), 3e, 4s, 3T consoles, Sensor analysis, and a bonus to Aux. There, you're done, not a lot of hard work, and after the event's over, it'll still sell. where the Federation has a plethora of ships in every class, the KDF is largely standardized-meaning I think people would buy it post-event, even if nothing further were done with it except to slap a 2000 zen sticker in the windshield, and it would probably (for the level of effort put forth) cost less and bring in more, than the various "3-pack" ships at fifty bucks do.

Really, in my opinion, the K'vort shouldn't be a world-beater, but it shouldn't be another example of mediocrity either, nor an "I'm just a redress of a fed design" like the Bortasque was.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 273
# 76
12-27-2012, 04:30 AM
The K'vort is only a few metres bigger than both the Hegh'ta and the HoH'SuS, it'll probably just be another Heavy BoP
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,512
# 77
12-27-2012, 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ooiue View Post
The K'vort is only a few metres bigger than both the Hegh'ta and the HoH'SuS, it'll probably just be another Heavy BoP
Wasn't it as big as the Galaxy?

I think there's not much place for speculation here, as I suspect Cryptic will make two similar ships for both factions, like they did with Odyssey and Bortas. The Ambassador is going to be yet another Cruiser, so I'd expect K'Vort to be a Battlecruiser (cannons and cloak at the cost of some HP and Shields).
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 531
# 78
12-27-2012, 07:20 AM
Hull: 25k
Shields: 0.9
Weapons: 4/3
Crew: 100
Boffs:
- Uni Com
- Uni Lt Com
- Uni Lt
- Uni Lt
- Uni Ens
Devices: 2
Consoles: Eng 3, Sci 2, Tac 4
Turn: 18
Power: +10 Weapons, +10 Engines
Battle Cloak
Can equip dual cannons
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Last edited by ussboleyn; 12-27-2012 at 08:31 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 79
12-27-2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussboleyn View Post
Hull: 25k
Shields: 0.9
Weapons: 4/3
Crew: 100
Boffs:
- Uni Com
- Uni Lt
- Uni Lt
- Uni Lt
- Uni Ens
Devices: 2
Consoles: Eng 3, Sci 2, Tac 4
Turn: 18
Power: +10 Weapons, +10 Engines
Battle Cloak
Can equip dual cannons
So you will gimp the ship from having access to the second best abilities in the tree. Nice. And in doing so render this ship useless to accomplishing anything in any class.

Please go have a look at all the career Lt CMDR skills you just obliterated.

Whats so special about having 3x LT?

Half the ships at end game already have the 2x LT and 1x LT CMDR. Wheres the benefit of downsizing the LT CMDR to LT?

Dual cannons? Are you serious?

Last edited by drkfrontiers; 12-27-2012 at 08:26 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 531
# 80
12-27-2012, 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
So you will gimp the ship from having access to the second best abilities in the tree. Nice. And in doing so render this ship useless to accomplishing anything in any class.

Please go have a look at all the career Lt CMDR skills you just obliterated.

Whats so special about having 3x LT?

Half the ships at end game already have the 2x LT and 1x LT CMDR. Wheres the benefit of downsizing the LT CMDR to LT?

Dual cannons? Are you serious?
Corrected... that was meant to be a Lt. Com.

I know we lose the ensign for the rest to be universal but I think it's about time we get a full boff lineup.
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