Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,864
# 91
01-08-2013, 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
I do see what you mean, the Borg are thinking: If everyone's using the same weapons, why adjust tactics... I'm just wondering if their forcefields have that 'permanent option'.
I know that if I saw a cube on the viewscreen, I would order every crew member to immediately replicate a pistol and a sub-machine gun. The first few drones who beam over, they eat lead. But would subsequent waves of boarding drones be caught in the same way, or would that branch of the collective adapt and go 'shields up' in response to the repeated attacks...
Or maybe better body armor. Cardassian and Hirogen body armor was very good for this sort of thing.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,199
# 92
01-08-2013, 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
look at the borg drone baby
BORN with implants
That is not correct. Borg do not procreate, they assimilate. The infant discovered by Enterprise-D personnel was not a newborn from shipboard drones, but a child which was being artificially matured in a maturation chamber until it would be a more efficient mass. As for the implants, the assimilation process utilizes internal replication to create primary implants which then break through the skin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
nothing to do with General order 24
you Cleanse and sterlise infection sites (infection control)
If you mean the planet where Chakotay was partially assimilated, then that would involve wiping out an entire colony to take out a handful of de-assimilated people who were no harm or threat to others. It would indeed be considered under the aegis of GO24, but an unjustified example, so yeah, given your other historical comments along those lines, I think they would indeed classify you Section 8... But as promised, there will be weekly kal-toh matches

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
impossible to tell
Very crucial distinction. If she was ever having her motor functions 'externally controlled' by the collective at any time, then Seven would not be personally responsible for any actions her body may be undertaking...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
But I mean Drones WEARING it to protect them from us
Ahh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
actually ANY human can

the golden rule is on assimilation repeat the phrase "I am the Borg We ARE Human"
I don't think that any Human would be able to resist the assimilation process... While I think an immortal's regenerative abilities might initially delay the process, I think that once the nanoprobes adapt, they would use that same process to significantly increase the process...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
i can not be assimilated (im diabetic)
How would diabetes prevent you from being assimilated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
many species also can't be for various reasons
Many? The only species I know of which is able to biologically resist assimilation, is the Undine. Which other species are there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
fire arrows , throw grenades , unleash Ebola
Ebola wouldn't be much good, as the drone's implants would maintain their biological systems and hold the disease in stasis. Other than that, yes, arrows, grenades etc would be my solutions, as mentioned, I would not want to get anywhere within reaching distance of a drone, armed or otherwise...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
and it still killed them
Of course it did. There were only two drones, so no time for the damage information to be processed and adapted to. I'm curious to know if that would be the case in an extended conflict.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Weapons
the average modern human is Armed
the average modern american owns a gun for example
Yes. No reason for them to be unclothed though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
their shields do not work that way (and if they did we have people who could still kill them)
Admittedly, the Holtzman shields do have the flaw of being susceptible to slow-moving objects which I don't believe Starfleet deflectors or Borg shields have, but I was referring more to the idea of if drones shields could be permanantly activated in the face of troops with projectile rifles, rather than them simply being reactive, as they seem to be against particle weapons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
I said a Modern human

(stronger and faster than a trek human)remember humanity has degenerated in the last few centuries
TOS humans were stronger than TNG humans and Enterprise humans stronger still
We in the 21st century could beat the hell out of a drone

our environment is much tougher
we have stronger immune systems
we are infact Physically superior in most respects
I disagree that humanity has degenerated, and disagree that contemporary Humans are physically superior to Trek era Humans. Advances in medical technology, improvements in lifestyle mean that people live longer than before, so can see no reason why that would decrease with the passage of time. Exposure to alien illnesses would increase the range of a persons' immune system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
A drone is slow
Correction. Drones are shown to be slow when they have no reason to move quickly... As mentioned, Seven moved faster than Tuvok, out-thought him in terms of tactics, and was able to physically over-power him. If Vulcans have been described as having three times the strength of a Human, then Seven is clearly considerably stronger. When the crew of the Enterprise-E were fighting the drones, one crew member was brushed aside with no effort at all.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 93
01-08-2013, 02:53 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
look at the borg drone baby
BORN with implants

That is not correct. Borg do not procreate, they assimilate. The infant discovered by Enterprise-D personnel was not a newborn from shipboard drones, but a child which was being artificially matured in a maturation chamber until it would be a more efficient mass. As for the implants, the assimilation process utilizes internal replication to create primary implants which then break through the skin.
refering to the one in voyager when Seven brings additional borg aboard and janeway once again declines to use terminal force


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
nothing to do with General order 24
you Cleanse and sterlise infection sites (infection control)

If you mean the planet where Chakotay was partially assimilated, then that would involve wiping out an entire colony to take out a handful of de-assimilated people who were no harm or threat to others.
everyone down there was borg
they were being re-assimilated

Quote:
It would indeed be considered under the aegis of GO24, but an unjustified example, so yeah, given your other historical comments along those lines, I think they would indeed classify you Section 8... But as promised, there will be weekly kal-toh matches
its not termination of a civilisation OR an attack on a living ecosystem
its like burning a viral sample


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
impossible to tell

Very crucial distinction. If she was ever having her motor functions 'externally controlled' by the collective at any time, then Seven would not be personally responsible for any actions her body may be undertaking...
as there is no "she" the drone is always acting as a drone

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
But I mean Drones WEARING it to protect them from us

Ahh...
particularly some of the ones that protect against kinetic force

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
actually ANY human can

the golden rule is on assimilation repeat the phrase "I am the Borg We ARE Human"

I don't think that any Human would be able to resist the assimilation process... While I think an immortal's regenerative abilities might initially delay the process, I think that once the nanoprobes adapt, they would use that same process to significantly increase the process...
According to some (soft canon) sources the Borg Avoid telepathic species and hive minds precisely because a stronger will can over ride the Collective to some degree
This is why species like the Chitik (insectoid hive mind) and the Binars (electronic communal mind) are not targets for assimilation


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
i can not be assimilated (im diabetic)

How would diabetes prevent you from being assimilated?
The Borg seek Perfection
id be treated as "unfit for assimilation"
the nanites simply would not bother


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
many species also can't be for various reasons

Many? The only species I know of which is able to biologically resist assimilation, is the Undine. Which other species are there?
several
Tholians for a start (crystaline) energy races , biomorphics , the Chitik , some other telepathic hive minds , anything with a protoplasm base , horta
etc etc

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
fire arrows , throw grenades , unleash Ebola

Ebola wouldn't be much good, as the drone's implants would maintain their biological systems and hold the disease in stasis. Other than that, yes, arrows, grenades etc would be my solutions, as mentioned, I would not want to get anywhere within reaching distance of a drone, armed or otherwise...
actually ebola would EAT the drone (no immune system)

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
and it still killed them

Of course it did. There were only two drones, so no time for the damage information to be processed and adapted to. I'm curious to know if that would be the case in an extended conflict.
their ability to adapt is not sufficient in small numbers (if the local collective is small enough they adapt slower)


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Weapons
the average modern human is Armed
the average modern american owns a gun for example

Yes. No reason for them to be unclothed though...
My daily clothing includes steel toe capped boots (a weapon) a belt with a buckle (a weapon) and thick heavy gloves (allowing me to rip out implants and mess the up)


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
their shields do not work that way (and if they did we have people who could still kill them)

Admittedly, the Holtzman shields do have the flaw of being susceptible to slow-moving objects which I don't believe Starfleet deflectors or Borg shields have, but I was referring more to the idea of if drones shields could be permanantly activated in the face of troops with projectile rifles, rather than them simply being reactive, as they seem to be against particle weapons...
Then we use a reverse polarity surge (with thanks to Data for that) and implode the shield

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
I said a Modern human

(stronger and faster than a trek human)remember humanity has degenerated in the last few centuries
TOS humans were stronger than TNG humans and Enterprise humans stronger still
We in the 21st century could beat the hell out of a drone

our environment is much tougher
we have stronger immune systems
we are infact Physically superior in most respects

I disagree that humanity has degenerated, and disagree that contemporary Humans are physically superior to Trek era Humans.
your right to an opinion is of course recognised

Quote:
Advances in medical technology, improvements in lifestyle mean that people live longer than before, so can see no reason why that would decrease with the passage of time.
exactly

A Healthy person in the middle ages was tougher than his 19th century counter part
Each generation medical ability improves and the gene pool weakens slightly
people who would not have lived to breed (like me and my brother diabetics) now do
each new generation will have more people who only exist because of medical advances

Quote:
Exposure to alien illnesses would increase the range of a persons' immune system.
And tri spectrum anti virals would cancel that out
examine the situation when 20th century men encounter TOS officers (they bounce them off the walls)


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
A drone is slow

Correction. Drones are shown to be slow when they have no reason to move quickly... As mentioned, Seven moved faster than Tuvok, out-thought him in terms of tactics, and was able to physically over-power him.
seven as I said has "bimbo powers" if seven had been 13 stone 50 years old and covered in implant scars she would have been slow

Quote:
If Vulcans have been described as having three times the strength of a Human, then Seven is clearly considerably stronger. When the crew of the Enterprise-E were fighting the drones, one crew member was brushed aside with no effort at all.
And a drone was also killed with a punch
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,864
# 94
01-08-2013, 03:52 PM
Quote:
According to some (soft canon) sources the Borg Avoid telepathic species and hive minds precisely because a stronger will can over ride the Collective to some degree
This is why species like the Chitik (insectoid hive mind) and the Binars (electronic communal mind) are not targets for assimilation
And some sources claim that the Borg Collective is in part a telepathic mind link..... Non-canon sources differ greatly here.
HAIL HYDRA!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 95
01-08-2013, 03:55 PM
True

but they do seem to avoid assimilating telepaths
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,199
# 96
01-08-2013, 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
refering to the one in voyager when Seven brings additional borg aboard and janeway once again declines to use terminal force
Same difference, it was still an assimilated child in a maturation chamber (possibly even surgically removed from its pregnant mother) not an infant conceived between drones.

As for 'bringing additional Borg aboard', as previously mentioned, disconnected drones should be classified as injured friendlies, not hostiles... Seven made no attempt to link any of the Borg children into a Voyager-based collective, so your argument is nonsensical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
everyone down there was borg
they were being re-assimilated
Were they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
its not termination of a civilisation OR an attack on a living ecosystem
its like burning a viral sample
As before, disconnected drones should be classified as injured friendlies and treated accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
as there is no "she" the drone is always acting as a drone
The Human personality had re-asserted itself, albeit being filtered though a neurologically restructured brain... As I mentioned before, if a remote control car gets its aerial snapped off, it can no longer be controlled remotely. The Doctor removed over 80% of the Borg hardware, and Chakotay's little trick at the end of Scorpion fried her 'aerial'... I doubt the collective (or the Borg Queen) was even capable of controlling her actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
According to some (soft canon) sources the Borg Avoid telepathic species and hive minds precisely because a stronger will can over ride the Collective to some degree
This is why species like the Chitik (insectoid hive mind) and the Binars (electronic communal mind) are not targets for assimilation
Interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
The Borg seek Perfection
id be treated as "unfit for assimilation"
the nanites simply would not bother
The assimilation process would be able to compensate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
actually ebola would EAT the drone (no immune system)
They don't need an immune system. The implants maintain their biological systems...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
their ability to adapt is not sufficient in small numbers (if the local collective is small enough they adapt slower)
Same situation as when the Enterprise-D came into contact with the Cube at Q's pranking... The first few drones were overcome by phaser fire, others were then adapted to them. That is what I was meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
My daily clothing includes steel toe capped boots (a weapon) a belt with a buckle (a weapon) and thick heavy gloves (allowing me to rip out implants and mess the up)
Hmmm... While you're trying to fist-fight a drone, those assimilation talons will be doing quite a number on you... As I said, I wouldn't want one any closer than a naginata to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Then we use a reverse polarity surge (with thanks to Data for that) and implode the shield


Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
exactly

A Healthy person in the middle ages was tougher than his 19th century counter part
Each generation medical ability improves and the gene pool weakens slightly
people who would not have lived to breed (like me and my brother diabetics) now do
each new generation will have more people who only exist because of medical advances
Hmmm..

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
examine the situation when 20th century men encounter TOS officers (they bounce them off the walls)
Plot necessity...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
seven as I said has "bimbo powers" if seven had been 13 stone 50 years old and covered in implant scars she would have been slow
I don't remember seeing any 13 stone drones...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
And a drone was also killed with a punch
From whom? I remember Data snapping a drone's neck, and Worf pistol-whipping another with his phaser rifle... Can't remember any drones being killed with a punch though...
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 97
01-08-2013, 04:11 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
refering to the one in voyager when Seven brings additional borg aboard and janeway once again declines to use terminal force

Same difference, it was still an assimilated child in a maturation chamber (possibly even surgically removed from its pregnant mother) not an infant conceived between drones.
but definately had implants


Quote:
As for 'bringing additional Borg aboard', as previously mentioned, disconnected drones should be classified as injured friendlies, not hostiles... Seven made no attempt to link any of the Borg children into a Voyager-based collective, so your argument is nonsensical.
She openly said "yes we are borg"
And put them in alcoves

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
everyone down there was borg
they were being re-assimilated

Were they?
yes the whole plot refers to the de-assimilates wanting to force others back into the collective


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
its not termination of a civilisation OR an attack on a living ecosystem
its like burning a viral sample

As before, disconnected drones should be classified as injured friendlies and treated accordingly.
or as plague carriers or rabid animals
the borg are a virus

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
as there is no "she" the drone is always acting as a drone

The Human personality had re-asserted itself, albeit being filtered though a neurologically restructured brain... As I mentioned before, if a remote control car gets its aerial snapped off, it can no longer be controlled remotely. The Doctor removed over 80% of the Borg hardware, and Chakotay's little trick at the end of Scorpion fried her 'aerial'... I doubt the collective (or the Borg Queen) was even capable of controlling her actions.
did not need to
she was programmed to act as a borg in all situations

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
According to some (soft canon) sources the Borg Avoid telepathic species and hive minds precisely because a stronger will can over ride the Collective to some degree
This is why species like the Chitik (insectoid hive mind) and the Binars (electronic communal mind) are not targets for assimilation

Interesting
to do with "confusion" this also occurs with the borg when they were handed the poison chalice in voyager

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
The Borg seek Perfection
id be treated as "unfit for assimilation"
the nanites simply would not bother

The assimilation process would be able to compensate...
they tend to not bother with anyone "imperfect"


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
actually ebola would EAT the drone (no immune system)

They don't need an immune system. The implants maintain their biological systems...
actually the biological systems also maintain the metal
but a borg has no immune system (thus why viral weapons work on them)

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
their ability to adapt is not sufficient in small numbers (if the local collective is small enough they adapt slower)

Same situation as when the Enterprise-D came into contact with the Cube at Q's pranking... The first few drones were overcome by phaser fire, others were then adapted to them. That is what I was meaning.
yes I understand that



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
My daily clothing includes steel toe capped boots (a weapon) a belt with a buckle (a weapon) and thick heavy gloves (allowing me to rip out implants and mess the up)

Hmmm... While you're trying to fist-fight a drone, those assimilation talons will be doing quite a number on you... As I said, I wouldn't want one any closer than a naginata to me...
or not of course
remember drone= slow , dumb , zombie
Me = Angry



Quote:
A Healthy person in the middle ages was tougher than his 19th century counter part
Each generation medical ability improves and the gene pool weakens slightly
people who would not have lived to breed (like me and my brother diabetics) now do
each new generation will have more people who only exist because of medical advances

Hmmm..
its a valid medical fact we are getting weaker

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
examine the situation when 20th century men encounter TOS officers (they bounce them off the walls)

Plot necessity...
really funny however

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
seven as I said has "bimbo powers" if seven had been 13 stone 50 years old and covered in implant scars she would have been slow

I don't remember seeing any 13 stone drones...
All the female drones seem to be "slinky" which is weird isn't it


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
And a drone was also killed with a punch

From whom? I remember Data snapping a drone's neck, and Worf pistol-whipping another with his phaser rifle... Can't remember any drones being killed with a punch though...
Worf I think

Also one got rifle butted by expendible dude
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,159
# 98
01-08-2013, 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
or not of course
remember drone= slow , dumb , zombie
Me = Angry
The assimilated Tarkaleans in "Regeneration" moved pretty quickly during their fight with Reed.
Say NO to mandatory Arc!
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 99
01-08-2013, 04:41 PM
Recent drones (like fresh zombies) are slightly faster
they have not begun to fall apart yet
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,199
# 100
01-08-2013, 05:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
but definately had implants
As explained in my previous post. Some implants are internally replicated by the nanoprobes as part of the assimilation process. During Picard's nightmare in First Contact, he recalled an implant breaking through his face. When Voyager passed close enough to the Raven for Seven to be affected by its 'distress signal', the nanoprobes in her blood began internally replicating new implants. One was seen breaking through her hand/wrist, and when the Doctor reviewed the biodata from her transport, he commented about the amount of hardware which had 're-grown'. That is why the baby(s) in question had implants, not because they were 'born with them'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
She openly said "yes we are borg"
In the biological sense to create a united community, not in a "WE ARE THE BORG. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE..." manner...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
And put them in alcoves
They needed the alcoves to recharge/regulate/maintain their cybernetic systems, it was hardly a 'recruitment drive'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
yes the whole plot refers to the de-assimilates wanting to force others back into the collective
I'll have to review this episode before commenting further upon it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
or as plague carriers or rabid animals
the borg are a virus
Maybe so, but that does not mean that they need to be euthanized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
did not need to
she was programmed to act as a borg in all situations
Her neural pathways had been restructured, so it is true that the processes of her thoughts were no longer the same as an unassimilated Human, but that is not the same as programming. Her demeanor was learned behavior, nothing more. Again, if the Collective actually possessed the power to take over her motor functions, they would have done so, but they did not, instead, the Borg Queen could only intimidate and coerce her, in situations where non-compliance would have been illogical and likely resulted in forcible re-assimilation into the Collective, something Seven had come to dread, not welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
they tend to not bother with anyone "imperfect"
Picard had an artificial heart, yet he was still assimilated...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
actually the biological systems also maintain the metal
but a borg has no immune system (thus why viral weapons work on them)
In addition to the technological immune system, the collective 'energy' of the Collective allowed for rapid biological regeneration, like the Quickening (which is why I believe that nanoprobes would be able to adapt to the Quickening and assimilate an immortal Human)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
or not of course
remember drone= slow , dumb , zombie
Me = Angry
And would be no more effective than a 13 year old girl trying to fight off a 200lb rapist...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
its a valid medical fact we are getting weaker
It's definitely an interesting proposal, and one I cannot truly refute...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
really funny however
No different though to how both Captain Kirk (the Real Kirk, not JJ's *****...) and Buck Rogers were able to defeat numerous opponents (often Royal bodyguards, who should be considerably better trained than the average minion) with nothing more than some kind of crude Judo... I wonder who would win in a fight between Kirk and Buck...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
All the female drones seem to be "slinky" which is weird isn't it
Ratings...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Worf I think
Who is stronger than the average Human...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Also one got rifle butted by expendible dude
If I remember, the drone didn't seem bothered by the impact and slammed the expendable dude into the wall like a rag-doll with minimal effort...

Last edited by marcusdkane; 01-08-2013 at 05:14 PM.
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