Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,257
# 81
01-07-2013, 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
They don't
Borg can be killed with a punch
a knife
a bullet

the 23rd+ century people simply think the wrong way
The borg are amazingly vulnerable to brute force
I was thinking about this earlier, and wondering if it is definitely so... When the Borg have had a weapon used against them in the past, the first drone is dead. Sometimes the second too, and usually the third adapts. When Picard shot the Borg on the holodeck, there were only two of them, so impossible to know if the other drones on the Enterprise would have been able to adapt against bullets... Given how the forcefields of a brig and starship can block physical impacts, I'm wondering if drones might have the ability to change their shields from 'passive' where they only activate upon incoming energy weapons, to 'active', where they would constantly be on, and deflecting not just energy-based, but physical impacts as well... Sure, in a situation like Picard had, I doubt it would do much good. But in an extended conflict against projectiles, I wonder if they might still have adapted... Afterall, in First Contact, the Borg were able to assimilate the Earth at a time prior to energy-based weapons. If bullets were all that was required to take down a drone, I would have thought that eventually, people would have realized that any projectile weapon would be effective, and contained the assimilation force. But, as they Earth was assimilated, people either didn't work it out, or, the Borg were indeed able to adapt against projectiles...

Last edited by marcusdkane; 01-07-2013 at 05:48 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,009
# 82
01-07-2013, 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
I was thinking about this earlier, and wondering if it is definitely so... When the Borg have had a weapon used against them in the past, the first drone is dead. Sometimes the second too, and usually the third adapts. When Picard shot the Borg on the holodeck, there were only two of them, so impossible to know if the other drones on the Enterprise would have been able to adapt against bullets... Given how the forcefields of a brig and starship can block physical impacts, I'm wondering if drones might have the ability to change their shields from 'passive' where they only activate upon incoming energy weapons, to 'active', where they would constantly be on, and deflecting not just energy-based, but physical impacts as well... Sure, in a situation like Picard had, I doubt it would do much good. But in an extended conflict against projectiles, I wonder if they might still have adapted... Afterall, in First Contact, the Borg were able to assimilate the Earth at a time prior to energy-based weapons. If bullets were all that was required to take down a drone, I would have thought that eventually, people would have realized that any projectile weapon would be effective, and contained the assimilation force. But, as they Earth was assimilated, people either didn't work it out, or, the Borg were indeed able to adapt against projectiles...
There are many ways they could do it too. Better shields, more efficient regeneration cycles, armor plating, mini transporter inhibitors to counter the TR-116, Borg tanks....
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,257
# 83
01-07-2013, 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
There are many ways they could do it too. Better shields, more efficient regeneration cycles, armor plating, mini transporter inhibitors to counter the TR-116, Borg tanks....
Oh for sure, plenty of ways they could do it, I was just wondering if they already could do so if the situation arose, but we simply haven't seen it onscreen due to the Federation's reliance on particle rather than projectile weapons
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,009
# 84
01-07-2013, 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
Oh for sure, plenty of ways they could do it, I was just wondering if they already could do so if the situation arose, but we simply haven't seen it onscreen due to the Federation's reliance on particle rather than projectile weapons
Oddly, now that you mentioned it, I actually think that everyones reliance on particle weapons actually might be helping us rather than hindering us.

The Borg are ruled by efficiency, and thus tend to counter things rather than innovating ahead of time. That's actually the biggest weakness of the Borg, as when people are at their most creative, that's also when they're the most dangerous.

Take for example Operation Chastise. The objective was to take out three german controlled dams. They couldn't be bombed as they had to many guns, and they couldn't be torpedoed due to the anti-torpedo nets. The solution?

Build a bomb that can skip like a stone across water.

The Borg aren't capable of that kind of unorthodox thinking unless something provokes it. So in other words, by keeping the Borg bored, we have more options to surprise them.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,091
# 85
01-07-2013, 07:52 PM
I'm still expecting the Borg to start using Neutronium some day.
HAIL HYDRA!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 86
01-08-2013, 02:14 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
They don't
Borg can be killed with a punch
a knife
a bullet

the 23rd+ century people simply think the wrong way
The borg are amazingly vulnerable to brute force

Can't think of a good rebuttal, so I'll let it go. Though I still think they must have some kind of defense against brute force like that, otherwise Starfleet would have adapted their tactics.
They don't

The first enemy the borg assimilated punched them in the face and tried a chair as a weapon
the last enemy did the same it worked both times

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
a drone is a drone is a drone

Until, of course, it is no longer a drone.
When de-assimilated (converted to free floating molecules)

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Chakotay was partly assimilated

You're talking about "Unity", I presume? I would argue that those people weren't serving the Collective anymore, but I suspect it would be futile.
they WERE Borg
the planet should have been tri-cobalted
thats proceedure
Eradicate

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Neelix was brought back from the dead by nanites

All the nanites did was reactivate his vital functions. There wasn't any assimilation going on.
Borg component = Borg

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Better dead than Drone Always

Yes, but she wasn't a drone anymore.
yes im afraid she was and will always be

Quote:
When people are joined to the Collective, they become slaves to its will (and therefore drones). Once they're liberated from the Collective, they are no longer bound to it (though full recovery can take a while, as in Seven's case) and can function as individuals with their own free will. They are, by definition, no longer drones.
Separate a radio controlled car from the transmitter and its not radio controlled
re-introduce the transmitter and they are radio controlled again

Quote:
markhawkman I'm still expecting the Borg to start using Neutronium some day.
they probably do (to make spoons)
Quote:
Yesterday 07:14 PM
centersolace Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane
Oh for sure, plenty of ways they could do it, I was just wondering if they already could do so if the situation arose, but we simply haven't seen it onscreen due to the Federation's reliance on particle rather than projectile weapons
As Borg today can still be jacked in the face
No they can not

Quote:
Oddly, now that you mentioned it, I actually think that everyones reliance on particle weapons actually might be helping us rather than hindering us.
its based on borg stupidity
the limited mind of the Borg does not allow it to reason a defence to physical force


Quote:
The Borg are ruled by efficiency, and thus tend to counter things rather than innovating ahead of time. That's actually the biggest weakness of the Borg, as when people are at their most creative, that's also when they're the most dangerous.
Borg are ruled by stupidity
they replace efficient flesh with metal
they replace intelligence with compliance
and they remove their reproductive organs to make room for a stereo

Quote:
The Borg aren't capable of that kind of unorthodox thinking unless something provokes it. So in other words, by keeping the Borg bored, we have more options to surprise them.
the Borg (individual or collective) are less intelligent than humans

Quote:
Yesterday 06:12 PM
marcusdkane Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace
There are many ways they could do it too. Better shields, more efficient regeneration cycles, armor plating, mini transporter inhibitors to counter the TR-116, Borg tanks....
starfleet body armour
or simply NOT attacking

Quote:
Oh for sure, plenty of ways they could do it, I was just wondering if they already could do so if the situation arose, but we simply haven't seen it onscreen due to the Federation's reliance on particle rather than projectile weapons
Yesterday 05:52 PM

we know that they have been assimilating for centuries and STILL have no resistance to a punch in the face

Quote:
centersolace Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane
I was thinking about this earlier, and wondering if it is definitely so... When the Borg have had a weapon used against them in the past, the first drone is dead. Sometimes the second too, and usually the third adapts. When Picard shot the Borg on the holodeck, there were only two of them, so impossible to know if the other drones on the Enterprise would have been able to adapt against bullets... Given how the forcefields of a brig and starship can block physical impacts, I'm wondering if drones might have the ability to change their shields from 'passive' where they only activate upon incoming energy weapons, to 'active', where they would constantly be on, and deflecting not just energy-based, but physical impacts as well...
holodeck gun was an energy attack anyway

Quote:
Sure, in a situation like Picard had, I doubt it would do much good. But in an extended conflict against projectiles, I wonder if they might still have adapted... Afterall, in First Contact, the Borg were able to assimilate the Earth at a time prior to energy-based weapons.
incorrect (check the opening of the enterprise mirror episodes lasers are the norm)

Quote:
If bullets were all that was required to take down a drone, I would have thought that eventually
,

if the Borg Arrived TODAY
they would be exterminated

Quote:
people would have realized that any projectile weapon would be effective, and contained the assimilation force. But, as they Earth was assimilated, people either didn't work it out, or, the Borg were indeed able to adapt against projectiles...
more likely
they beamed a few people up (naked)
assimilated them
beamed a few more up (naked)
Assimilated them

no reason to ground engage and be massacred

as I say todays humans would make mince of the borg Even unarmed and nude
we are smarter ,stronger , faster and better than they are
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,201
# 87
01-08-2013, 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
The first enemy the borg assimilated punched them in the face and tried a chair as a weapon
the last enemy did the same it worked both times
What episode was that in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
yes im afraid she was and will always be
Evidence, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Separate a radio controlled car from the transmitter and its not radio controlled
re-introduce the transmitter and they are radio controlled again
So as long as the liberated drones remain seperated from the Collective, they're no longer drones. Exactly my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
the Borg (individual or collective) are less intelligent than humans
Less adaptable, maybe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
incorrect (check the opening of the enterprise mirror episodes lasers are the norm)
I'm pretty sure those are bullets. Machine gun fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
if the Borg Arrived TODAY
they would be exterminated
Depends on how many there are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
more likely
they beamed a few people up (naked)
assimilated them
beamed a few more up (naked)
Assimilated them

no reason to ground engage and be massacred
That is how they did it in "Dark Frontier". Except for the naked part.
Please fix the Foundry lag!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,257
# 88
01-08-2013, 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
they WERE Borg
the planet should have been tri-cobalted
thats proceedure
Eradicate
If you keep up this kind of GO 24 nonsense, you're going to wind up getting Section 8'd... I'll come visit every Tuesday and bring a kal-toh puzzle

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Separate a radio controlled car from the transmitter and its not radio controlled
re-introduce the transmitter and they are radio controlled again
Snap off the car's aerial, and waggle the joystick all you like, the car goes nowhere unless someone's pushing it. Was Seven ever physically taken over by the collective once separated and made to move against her will, or was she simply coerced and emotionally blackmailed into compliance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
starfleet body armour
Assimilation tubules can penetrate all known armor and energy fields... Even an immortal Human would be unable to stand up to a drone in a physical confrontation... The Quickening might delay the assimilation process, but, it would eventually be adapted to, and then hijacked to enhance the internal replication process... The only way I'd consider taking on a drone hand to hand, would be with a weapon like a naginata. I wouldn't want them anywhere near reaching distance, even a bat'leth would be closer than I would be happy with (especially with a group of drones) Worf's taking on the drone with the mek'leth was only viable as a one on one situation, and even then, still not well thought out (as proven when his EVA suit got ripped...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
holodeck gun was an energy attack anyway
Yes, kinetic energy. With the safety protocols disengaged, items within the holodeck behave as replicated objects, not mere 'projections' and controlled forcefields. The bullets were as real as any manufactured. Picard was simply simplifying the events for Lily's benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
incorrect (check the opening of the enterprise mirror episodes lasers are the norm)
Haven't seen them, but I'll take your word for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
if the Borg Arrived TODAY
they would be exterminated
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
more likely
they beamed a few people up (naked)
assimilated them
beamed a few more up (naked)
Assimilated them
Why naked? No other shown assimilations have involved the victims being naked...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
no reason to ground engage and be massacred
I agree, no need to do so, but, as mentioned, I do wonder if the Borg could simply switch their forcefields on permanently (like the Holtzman shields in the Duneverse) if they knew that a particular confrontation was to involve projectile weapons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
as I say todays humans would make mince of the borg Even unarmed and nude
we are smarter ,stronger , faster and better than they are
Not so. Even partially de-assimilated, Seven was smarter, stronger and faster than Tuvok, and as Vulcans are smarter, stronger and faster than Humans, by definition, that would make her considerably more so. Consider the capabilities of the disconnected drones in Descent... I do concede that Human versatility has been shown to trump the Collective, but to assume that that will always be the case, is a dangerously over-confident mindset.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,257
# 89
01-08-2013, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
Oddly, now that you mentioned it, I actually think that everyones reliance on particle weapons actually might be helping us rather than hindering us.

The Borg are ruled by efficiency, and thus tend to counter things rather than innovating ahead of time. That's actually the biggest weakness of the Borg, as when people are at their most creative, that's also when they're the most dangerous.

Take for example Operation Chastise. The objective was to take out three german controlled dams. They couldn't be bombed as they had to many guns, and they couldn't be torpedoed due to the anti-torpedo nets. The solution?

Build a bomb that can skip like a stone across water.

The Borg aren't capable of that kind of unorthodox thinking unless something provokes it. So in other words, by keeping the Borg bored, we have more options to surprise them.
I do see what you mean, the Borg are thinking: If everyone's using the same weapons, why adjust tactics... I'm just wondering if their forcefields have that 'permanent option'.
I know that if I saw a cube on the viewscreen, I would order every crew member to immediately replicate a pistol and a sub-machine gun. The first few drones who beam over, they eat lead. But would subsequent waves of boarding drones be caught in the same way, or would that branch of the collective adapt and go 'shields up' in response to the repeated attacks...
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 90
01-08-2013, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
The first enemy the borg assimilated punched them in the face and tried a chair as a weapon
the last enemy did the same it worked both times

What episode was that in?
all and none

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
yes im afraid she was and will always be

Evidence, please.
look at the borg drone baby
BORN with implants

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Separate a radio controlled car from the transmitter and its not radio controlled
re-introduce the transmitter and they are radio controlled again

So as long as the liberated drones remain seperated from the Collective, they're no longer drones. Exactly my point.
but they are never entirely seperate especially in STO


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
the Borg (individual or collective) are less intelligent than humans

Less adaptable, maybe.
less intelligent
theres a heap of radio shack spares in their skull so less room for a start

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
incorrect (check the opening of the enterprise mirror episodes lasers are the norm)

I'm pretty sure those are bullets. Machine gun fire.
Cochrane shoots a vulcan with an energy weapon
others are used in the storming

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
if the Borg Arrived TODAY
they would be exterminated

Depends on how many there are.
no it doesn't
Against modern blood thirsty humans the borg would not stand a chance

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
more likely
they beamed a few people up (naked)
assimilated them
beamed a few more up (naked)
Assimilated them

no reason to ground engage and be massacred

That is how they did it in "Dark Frontier". Except for the naked part.
the naked part is important


Quote:
marcusdkane
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 368# 88
Today, 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
they WERE Borg
the planet should have been tri-cobalted
thats proceedure
Eradicate

If you keep up this kind of GO 24 nonsense, you're going to wind up getting Section 8'd... I'll come visit every Tuesday and bring a kal-toh puzzle
nothing to do with General order 24
you Cleanse and sterlise infection sites (infection control)

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Separate a radio controlled car from the transmitter and its not radio controlled
re-introduce the transmitter and they are radio controlled again

Snap off the car's aerial, and waggle the joystick all you like, the car goes nowhere unless someone's pushing it. Was Seven ever physically taken over by the collective once separated and made to move against her will, or was she simply coerced and emotionally blackmailed into compliance?
impossible to tell
but she acted to increase the borg collective on voyager

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
starfleet body armour

Assimilation tubules can penetrate all known armor and energy fields...
yeah bit of a cop out
But I mean Drones WEARING it to protect them from us
Quote:
Even an immortal Human would be unable to stand up to a drone in a physical confrontation...
actually ANY human can

the golden rule is on assimilation repeat the phrase "I am the Borg We ARE Human"

Quote:
The Quickening might delay the assimilation process, but, it would eventually be adapted to, and then hijacked to enhance the internal replication process... The only way I'd consider taking on a drone hand to hand, would be with a weapon like a naginata.
i can not be assimilated (im diabetic)
many species also can't be for various reasons

Quote:
I wouldn't want them anywhere near reaching distance, even a bat'leth would be closer than I would be happy with (especially with a group of drones) Worf's taking on the drone with the mek'leth was only viable as a one on one situation, and even then, still not well thought out (as proven when his EVA suit got ripped...)
fire arrows , throw grenades , unleash Ebola , send in a gardening robot


Qu
Quote:
ote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
holodeck gun was an energy attack anyway

Yes, kinetic energy. With the safety protocols disengaged, items within the holodeck behave as replicated objects, not mere 'projections' and controlled forcefields. The bullets were as real as any manufactured. Picard was simply simplifying the events for Lily's benefit.
and it still killed them

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
incorrect (check the opening of the enterprise mirror episodes lasers are the norm)

Haven't seen them, but I'll take your word for it.
its actually the best story in enterprise

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
if the Borg Arrived TODAY
they would be exterminated

Agreed.
Good thats another one sorted

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
more likely
they beamed a few people up (naked)
assimilated them
beamed a few more up (naked)
Assimilated them

Why naked? No other shown assimilations have involved the victims being naked...
Weapons
the average modern human is Armed
the average modern american owns a gun for example

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
no reason to ground engage and be massacred

I agree, no need to do so, but, as mentioned, I do wonder if the Borg could simply switch their forcefields on permanently (like the Holtzman shields in the Duneverse) if they knew that a particular confrontation was to involve projectile weapons...
their shields do not work that way (and if they did we have people who could still kill them)

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
as I say todays humans would make mince of the borg Even unarmed and nude
we are smarter ,stronger , faster and better than they are

Not so. Even partially de-assimilated, Seven was smarter, stronger and faster than Tuvok
,

Tuvok is not relevant
I said a Modern human
(stronger and faster than a trek human)

Quote:
and as Vulcans are smarter, stronger and faster than Humans, by definition, that would make her considerably more so
Seven had "bimbo power"
A drone is slow
A drone can be dismantled before it can turn round
and of course a Drone is physically incapable of walking with a wiggle
#
.
Quote:
Consider the capabilities of the disconnected drones in Descent... I do concede that Human versatility has been shown to trump the Collective, but to assume that that will always be the case, is a dangerously over-confident mindset.
remember humanity has degenerated in the last few centuries
TOS humans were stronger than TNG humans and Enterprise humans stronger still
We in the 21st century could beat the hell out of a drone

our environment is much tougher
we have stronger immune systems
we are infact Physically superior in most respects
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