Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 270
# 1 Another buff/nerf thread
01-02-2013, 06:58 PM
These are just suggestions for balance changes. There may not be much of a dev response to this, but I thought I'd throw a bunch of ideas at you guys for the sake of discussion. Feel free to disagree with any or all of them.

There might be some hidden personal bias to this, but I'm more interested in general gameplay than catering to my own playstyles. For reference, I play a tac BoP, sci/sci, eng healing cruiser, and tac MVAM escort. Also keep in mind the effect that balance changes might have on PvE carebear rage, so let's not go nuts here.

In no particular order, and by no means a comphrehensive list:

1) Cannon damage: A lot of people are complaining about escorts doing too much damage, and lately I've been inclined to agree with them. Although escort damage isn't necessarily the problem, it might be easier to adjust sustained cannon damage to account for escorts' new-found survivability rather than nerfing escort tanking abilities due to the learning curve for inexperienced players.

I've been thinking that it might be time to remove the inherent crit severity bonus from dual heavy cannons. DHCs would still be superior in PvP due to their ability to burst through shields, but it would give people a more equal choice between dual heavies and regular dual cannons. For that matter, torpedos could be slightly buffed (maybe with increased crit chance) to give a more viable alternative to 4x DHC builds.

2) Gravity well: Although it can be effective when combined with other holds, the pull on gravity well seems a bit lacking in that it can be easily escaped without using any special powers (e.g. AP Omega). Hopefully people have some informed ideas as to how much the pull should be increased, because from what I hear it has a touchy mechanic.

3) Extend shields: I personally love this power but it gives too much resistance. When coupled with other heals/resists it can make a ship nearly invincible. This is especially true with multiple extend teams. Ideally it would give more of a penalty to the caster than simply putting RSP on global cooldown. If at all possible, extend should share shield damage between casters and their extend target, though an easier fix might be to reduce the resistance it gives by 25-50%.

4) Mask energy signature: Let's face it - barely anyone uses this so it needs a noticeable buff. Would it be acceptable to make it usable in combat like battle cloak? It wouldn't necessarily help people escape, but it could still give the 5 second defense bonus when used under fire in exchange for a slight drop in power. It might even be prudent to give it the ability to break target lock like the KHG shield placate, except it wouldn't be usable when tractored as with regular battle cloak.

5) Cloak speed bonus: Cloak is awesome, but I've never understood why it gives a speed bonus. The surprise damage bonus when decloaking and the defense bonus when cloaked make sense, but if anything shouldn't cloak decrease and/or limit flight speed?

6) Tier 4 Romulan rep torpedo: Yeah this is a cool weapon but the plasma proc stacks too much. I'm not completely familar with its mechanics, but from what I hear it has an insanely high proc chance - not to mention the large quantity of torpedoes one can launch with torp spread to further increase the proc chance.

7) Eng power consoles: This was mentioned in another thread, but currently they're not worth running because the power bonus is negligible and not a viable alternative to resistance consoles.

8) Viral Matrix: Another great skill, but it's too effective when spec'd into subspace decompiler and enhanced by doffs. Generally it just lasts too long, but making it more effectively cleared by engineering team could help with the problem.

9. Tac consoles: A controversial subject, but it seems silly that damage consoles are the only ones not subject to diminishing returns. I've especially noticed the emphasis on DPS in PvE instances to the point where there's not much incentive to run anything but a tac escort.

I've been told that diminishing returns on tac consoles would hurt 5-slot fleet ships to the point where the fifth console would be useless, but there should also be some incentive to run mixed tac consoles (e.g. energy damage and torpedo damage together).

10. Nerf mentions in other threads: Tric mine damage (duh), T4 Romulan placate frequency, AMS duration, lackluster secondary buffs on emergency power to aux/engines/weapons, various ship gimmicks (too many to list), and everyone's favorite love/hate relationship - tactical team

That's enough discussion points for now. This was just off the top of my head, so feel free to add anything I may have missed. Engage!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,393
# 2
01-02-2013, 07:47 PM
I"d just like to say that the 3pc KHG MES is damn nifty. If normal MES could be used in to that same effect that seems like it would be really keen.

Tac consoles. The one type console phenom is likely due to cannons working as well as they do. Well a couple other reasons that I can think of also. I'll toss ignorance out there as one. They should just straight up limit the number of consoles to say 3. This way all escorts and some other ships would be forced to add in at least on different console. Of course it woud be sorta keen if there were unique pattern or marking consoles. Like let's say my mental capacity still limited me to all cannons, but the new rules meant a 3 console limit ono energy. I could choose two pattern enhancers, one for beta and one for omega. I dunno. I'm going back to my cave now.

Cheers!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.

Last edited by thissler; 01-02-2013 at 07:48 PM. Reason: my speeeling was bad.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,086
# 3
01-02-2013, 10:50 PM
i agree with 90% of yak's post....

my 1 push back would be cannon damage.

argue me this forum brethren:


is this game not horribly defensive in every aspect? i find doing good damage to be the toughest thing to do in the game... i can heal and CC my ass off, without blinking an eye....

i mean.....the ability to have your shields 100% up time hardened, and 80% up time distribute those shields to the facing receiving the damage on just about every ship? and if you cannot accomplish that, pm me...@CaptainHorizon anytime in game...we can go over some shiz.....

that alone, coupled with the ability to negate 30% of an escort's alpha strike through the lowly lt ability.....RSP1..... i am actually quite shocked anyone can have an argument on the contrary, and look forward to everyone's response....

have fun kill bad guys

-thrusters on full-

(and remember i speak from a tacscort's point of view, so take this with a grain of salt if you will)
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 4
01-02-2013, 11:32 PM
Could we get a buff to Tyken's Rift as well? The drain on it, even with 4-5 rifts out is pitiful. -7~ if you keep the target pinned in it for the full duration. That's assuming 125 Aux, 9 into Flow Capacitors, 4 Mk XI Blue Flow Cap consoles, and a Mk XI Jem'hadar Deflector and your target is Captain Horizon's Steamrunner, presumably with cappy up there specced 9 into Power Insulators. Oh yeah, the fact that the damage on the rift is both negligible and blocked by shields is just adding insult to injury. Howabout making Tyken's Rift a hybrids skill that drains shields and power levels? Or... something? It's a big nasty AoE... well... it could be. It's got no snare and is easily avoided, though you can fly through them all day long with exactly zip-o consequence. The only thing it does do is clear Heavy Torpedoes and Mines, and kinda puts the brakes on pets. There's this funny thing, though, you don't see mines and pets every single match, more often these days, sure, but not all the time, and for a skill on a minute-long cooldown, its effects are negligible. I'm not asking for wandering in to a Rift to be some sort of instant death-sentence, but damnit, it should have a palpable effect on a player that's in it.

Mask Energy Signature being revamped to work along the likes of the KHG 3-piece bonus would just about give the power a reason to be slotted.

Shields drains could use a small-to-moderate bump across the board. Maybe a 30% increase in the face of Insulators w/ a dimishing return on repeat uses of the same power from different sources on the same target (to prevent 2-3 sci ships zipping in and making shields cease to exist instantly).

While you're revamping powers, do us all a favor and make them all trainable either by captains or through the Skill Trainer.

/JM2c

[EDIT]

The speed boost on BoP's when cloaking is to help reduce/mitigate the "Hey my shields are down and the other guy is hugging me in a ship nearly as fast as me, better armed, and able to see through my cloak" that happens occasionally with mid-combat battlecloak usage.

The only nerf VM needs is for Engineering Team to clear it properly so there's no chance of it recurring if ET'd.

Last edited by thegrimcorsair; 01-02-2013 at 11:37 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 269
# 5
01-03-2013, 12:40 AM
Cannon damage... 99.99% of the time when i fight a cannon escort with my beam ship ie the galore or fleet excelsior and even a time ship(no consoles) the dhc escort gets some ship evacuation training so how are they op are my beams way op because I out damage them?

Extend shields only good in a team and many ways to get around it 1 change targets 2 shockwave 3 subnuke 4 tbr 5 viral 6 target shields 7 get a lucky ass prock! and probably a few i may have missed either way the skill is simple to get around just need to learn to be tricky and trick the other team in to wasting it!

Grave well I have seen some super strong ones and some super weak ones. Pandas use to use this well in a team back in the day! ask them how to make it strong.

Viral yea annoying but i am specked into sub system repair seams to help some and does not seam like my human boffs are working if they fix those it might make it not as strong.

Tac consoles i think are fine i have heal ships that just cant be killed by one ship so if they nerf them how will even 2 be able to take it down.

We are not kirk here cant really take on a lot of ships at once. dhc get out of the arc use piloting skills simple as that. Tac beamboats get behind them or in front simple just hone your piloting skills then they will not be so overwhelming. You and also watch their buffs if they are not using crf you usually don't need to use a tac team just send power to that shield facing and use piloting
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 6
01-03-2013, 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtheyak View Post
These are just suggestions for balance changes. There may not be much of a dev response to this, but I thought I'd throw a bunch of ideas at you guys for the sake of discussion. Feel free to disagree with any or all of them.

There might be some hidden personal bias to this, but I'm more interested in general gameplay than catering to my own playstyles. For reference, I play a tac BoP, sci/sci, eng healing cruiser, and tac MVAM escort. Also keep in mind the effect that balance changes might have on PvE carebear rage, so let's not go nuts here.

In no particular order, and by no means a comphrehensive list:

1) Cannon damage: A lot of people are complaining about escorts doing too much damage, and lately I've been inclined to agree with them. Although escort damage isn't necessarily the problem, it might be easier to adjust sustained cannon damage to account for escorts' new-found survivability rather than nerfing escort tanking abilities due to the learning curve for inexperienced players.

I've been thinking that it might be time to remove the inherent crit severity bonus from dual heavy cannons. DHCs would still be superior in PvP due to their ability to burst through shields, but it would give people a more equal choice between dual heavies and regular dual cannons. For that matter, torpedos could be slightly buffed (maybe with increased crit chance) to give a more viable alternative to 4x DHC builds.


3) Extend shields: I personally love this power but it gives too much resistance. When coupled with other heals/resists it can make a ship nearly invincible. This is especially true with multiple extend teams. Ideally it would give more of a penalty to the caster than simply putting RSP on global cooldown. If at all possible, extend should share shield damage between casters and their extend target, though an easier fix might be to reduce the resistance it gives by 25-50%.
With all the other broken stuff stock piled on their "to do list" I kind of find it difficult for these to even make it on there.

Mainly because as an experienced premade vs premade veteran, our matches have lasted substantially long. With the two items mentioned above, it almost seems like a Chinese finger trap for whatever I am going to say next.

Matches at a high caliber level of premade vs premade are often determined by reaction times to certain events in matches. These matches often last one hour or more. Now this cannot be entirely blamed on extends. However, they also cannot be blamed on DHC for not doing enough damage. But neither are the culprit in such occurrences.

In fact, both of these items are working as intended, and in an orderly manner. Damage must surpass healing, if you run a parser you will be able to see the detrimental amount of heals being used to amount of damage being dealt. Providing only slight windows of opportunities for attack. In otherwords, nerf cannon damage and everyone will be forced into tric mines, or calling it a draw.

As far as the extend thing goes, really I'm finding this a bit of a growing window licking issue because of the recent word of mouth. I'm kind of really tired of people unable to watch a single video TRH has put up on youtube. We have a lot of examples of heavy extend teams with multiple cruisers extending one another being destroyed easily. Does anyone even have the slightest clue as to how much precision it takes to use those DHC in junction with the rest of a team effort to score a kill? It takes a very very very long time to acquire a feel for it. Watch our videos.

Damian I don't know if you remember, that one in house match we had. I was on my tac vesta and you were on your tac bug. That's what we had for DPS. Our side had more heals and lost 15-9. We scored 6 kills when we coordinated our window of opportunity/figured out the other team's defense, and scored 6 kills in a rally back from a 14-3. Nothing changed on the other team, not their extends, not their DHC, nothing. If the game went up to 20 we would of won, however the game ended 15-9 because the other team played better.

Now this is the same situation with the DHC. If you're unable to keep your arc on someone, then this is something you need to work on. Subsequently, if you're unable to tell if someone's DHC are on you, then you need to work on getting out of someone's VERY narrow arc.

The circumstance about extends means you need to break them. And there is enough stuff in this game for you to do that with. Which I don't even think this ability should of shown up on this list in the first place.

It's becoming silly now that the basics to pvp are coming on here as items to be nerfed, while the new crap is untested, unscathed on feedback, released, and exploited to heck all over the queues.

Example: Embassy Doffs, Temporal set, Tric Mine/Dispersal, etc..

Last edited by paxottoman; 01-03-2013 at 01:01 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 7
01-03-2013, 01:08 AM
1) I think that cannons power drain should be brought to what it was in the old time: that cannons actually drain energy when they fire in the same way as beams do. Anything else about cannons is ok, leave it. Just FIX that damn power drain.

3) Extend shields is one of few thing (if not the only one) that makes cruisers viable for PvP. The other may by EWP III if someone likes it. So leave it as it is or get rid of cruisers (or change their role in game).

4) MES - what's wrong with it? It gives pretty good stealth. Ok, not much bonuses other then this but when you fly MVAE or some other high-end Fed escort without a cloak it can be pretty usefull for sneaking around and alpha striking your targets of choice. The only thing that suck about it is the reliance on Aux power. I would make it not dependand on power levels and apply constant stealth with the value for current 125 Aux MES. It would be good power then. Not something to be used by anyone, but good enough for those who want to sneak around.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 434
# 8
01-03-2013, 05:07 AM
I think most can agree that there are some more pressing issues. That being said, it doesn't mean that there aren't other things to consider.

It would be more interesting to see what might happen if the ship extending took some of the incoming damage to their own shields. Maybe there could be a shield system drain component.

I'd hate to swing the escort defense pendulum too far (especially considering my own respawn rate) but I would love to see the ship type effect the value of their own heals. A Cruiser using ET1 would be at current levels but an Escort would have like bit of a reduction with Sciencd somewhere in the middle. I do like the emphasis of speed in Escort defense so I'd rather that didn't take too much of a hit.

Things still need to die so I'd rather not see damage take too much of a hit. That being said, diminishing returns on Tac Consoles could be just the ticket to equalize (while still favoring escorts as it should) some of the damage potential across classes. Diminishing returns hasn't stopped people from stacking resistance and there are a significant number of alternate build and console options. Then again, I admit to a bit of prejudice against pure energy builds on any ship. I don't think it's good for gameplay or that it was intended to be as efficient as it is to the detriment of more varied builds.

The Engineering energy consoles are a joke so enhancing the can only add greater variability to Engineering options. Assuming they are altered in careful ways I fail to see how that would be such a bad thing.

I don't know what it would entail but I'm interested in the gameplay potential for tractor beams that consider the mass and power of the two ships involved. Pets would only debuff a turn rate while they get pulled behind (the distance would slowly increase so that the hold could be broken with enough speed). Escorts might slow a Cruiser but would be similarly towed along for a bit. BoPs might be towed by an Escort.

I could see a buff to damage potential from Gravity well but I'm concerned about a buff to any of the power drains like Tykens. Powerful AoEs are especially problematic for balance. There was a time when you could use counters (like PH or Omega) but another escape option was a battery or diverting all power to engines before popping Evasive's. increase the hold strength and damage but return to the times when this combo was effective. You don't need to rocket out 30k away instantly but it should still be better than burning batteries and Evasive's and just sitting. Warp-plasma is good for that too.

Power bonuses by ship class. Aside from this and bridge officer slot options, there isn't much else that ship class does to effect there intended jobs. I'd like to see power level bonus removed from all but Cruisers who would also get an innate bonus to parts of the Engineering skill tree. An assault cruiser might split the skill tree bonus between Engineering and low level Tac skill tree options. This would be great for making Sci/Sci particularly powerful because they too would get a bonus to the Sci skill tree that is decoupled from aux power level. It would be harder to get Aux up there but that's where build and play style come in. Escorts would have strong Tac skill bonuses but it would be harder to reach 125 weapon power making it a bigger choice between survivability and packing as much punch as possible.

I know there are loads of other things to discuss, some more important than others. All I want is a fun, reasonably level playing field, that increases variability in builds and access for all.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 9
01-03-2013, 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
I could see a buff to damage potential from Gravity well but I'm concerned about a buff to any of the power drains like Tykens. Powerful AoEs are especially problematic for balance. There was a time when you could use counters (like PH or Omega) but another escape option was a battery or diverting all power to engines before popping Evasive's. increase the hold strength and damage but return to the times when this combo was effective. You don't need to rocket out 30k away instantly but it should still be better than burning batteries and Evasive's and just sitting. Warp-plasma is good for that too.
If you have 9 in PI a fully specced, fully consoled, DOff proc x 5 of Tyken's Rift 3 does exactly 4 things: Clear mines, slow pets, jack, and crap. It is, quite literally, useless vs players that have actually encountered it on its own and paid attention to their power bars. Polaron weapons and Energy Siphons are very powerful drain tools, and IMO they don't really need any buffs atm. Tyken's Rift is, however, left somewhere in "Pretty but Useless" category. I'm not asking for it to be a zone that you touch and black out, just something that's actually worth slotting, something that's dangerous enough that players will want to get away from in a big hurry. Hell, I'd like it to be as useful as my Polaron cannons w/ CSV.

[EDIT]

Fixed wording to clarify what I was getting at.

Last edited by thegrimcorsair; 01-03-2013 at 05:34 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,393
# 10
01-03-2013, 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
I think most can agree that there are some more pressing issues. That being said, it doesn't mean that there aren't other things to consider.

It would be more interesting to see what might happen if the ship extending took some of the incoming damage to their own shields. Maybe there could be a shield system drain component.

I'd hate to swing the escort defense pendulum too far (especially considering my own respawn rate) but I would love to see the ship type effect the value of their own heals. A Cruiser using ET1 would be at current levels but an Escort would have like bit of a reduction with Sciencd somewhere in the middle. I do like the emphasis of speed in Escort defense so I'd rather that didn't take too much of a hit.

Things still need to die so I'd rather not see damage take too much of a hit. That being said, diminishing returns on Tac Consoles could be just the ticket to equalize (while still favoring escorts as it should) some of the damage potential across classes. Diminishing returns hasn't stopped people from stacking resistance and there are a significant number of alternate build and console options. Then again, I admit to a bit of prejudice against pure energy builds on any ship. I don't think it's good for gameplay or that it was intended to be as efficient as it is to the detriment of more varied builds.

The Engineering energy consoles are a joke so enhancing the can only add greater variability to Engineering options. Assuming they are altered in careful ways I fail to see how that would be such a bad thing.

I don't know what it would entail but I'm interested in the gameplay potential for tractor beams that consider the mass and power of the two ships involved. Pets would only debuff a turn rate while they get pulled behind (the distance would slowly increase so that the hold could be broken with enough speed). Escorts might slow a Cruiser but would be similarly towed along for a bit. BoPs might be towed by an Escort.

I could see a buff to damage potential from Gravity well but I'm concerned about a buff to any of the power drains like Tykens. Powerful AoEs are especially problematic for balance. There was a time when you could use counters (like PH or Omega) but another escape option was a battery or diverting all power to engines before popping Evasive's. increase the hold strength and damage but return to the times when this combo was effective. You don't need to rocket out 30k away instantly but it should still be better than burning batteries and Evasive's and just sitting. Warp-plasma is good for that too.

Power bonuses by ship class. Aside from this and bridge officer slot options, there isn't much else that ship class does to effect there intended jobs. I'd like to see power level bonus removed from all but Cruisers who would also get an innate bonus to parts of the Engineering skill tree. An assault cruiser might split the skill tree bonus between Engineering and low level Tac skill tree options. This would be great for making Sci/Sci particularly powerful because they too would get a bonus to the Sci skill tree that is decoupled from aux power level. It would be harder to get Aux up there but that's where build and play style come in. Escorts would have strong Tac skill bonuses but it would be harder to reach 125 weapon power making it a bigger choice between survivability and packing as much punch as possible.

I know there are loads of other things to discuss, some more important than others. All I want is a fun, reasonably level playing field, that increases variability in builds and access for all.
If you just based Eng T and Sci T off of base hull and Shield mod, healing as a percent of those numbers, you would likely get them somewhere that you would want them to be.

That tractor beams totally disregard all concepts at work in this game is just tragic. That this game has inertia backwards is also tragic. I guess you could see how those two items are related.

Healing is likely fine as it is on Cruisers. Just saying.

Mitigation in this game is way to high and the mechanics for gaining it are far to uneven and skewed towards escorts. Excellent mitigation can be gained by combining skills no higher than Lt, and only escorts have access to the best defensive skills, evasion. Evasion the property of defense, not the manuever. Although THAT manuever certainly is evasive.

Evasion isn't exactly mitigation. Some may consider it to be such as it does lessen the effect of enemy fire, but it does that by not letting that fire ever land. It's worth a look though because of what it does for escorts.

What this means is that each discipline has at no higher than Lt level excellent abilities that work in tandem with each other to mitigate damage, and often to perform ONE other function at least. HE, TSS, PH, APD, and all the team abilites are examples of this. Science and Engineering have higher ranks of some of those abilites, but no entirely NEW abilities to supplement themselves at higher ranks of Boff stations. Every ability of higher rank is just an extension of what came before it. Follow me here, every ship right up to Lt is essentially equal. Then tacs pull way ahead because of defense and APO. Tacs don't have to mitigate or heal damage that never happens. And defense is a complete different stat from resistance so they compliment each other very well.

Think of them like filters. Mitigation filters out 25% of the damage that could be done to your ship. Adding more Mitigation filters you find that eventually you reach a point where they are no longer effective. Defense puts in an entirely new type of filter. What it does is it stops 50% of the damage from ever reaching your mitigation filter. Looks good for escorts. But what happens to Cruisers? Well exactly the opposite is what happens.

Okay not exactly the opposite, but because of the way defense and accuracy interact and the fact that cruisers start with a much lower defense than escorts and escorts tend to have a much higher acc, cruisers tend to not be missed at all. In fact, they would tend to be hit critically. So all defense stats do for a cruiser is it has the potential to increase incoming damage. There's no upside for cruiser defense. "fixes" by way of stat differences are in the game, but they never really solved this basic issue.

From here on in you decide if that is broken or not. The design intent is clearly not to try and shoot escorts out of the sky with brute strength. Well nothing in this game is about that really. But it certainly wasn't to allow cruisers to be pummeled all day long.

Healing is acceptable. Mitigation and Defense as it relates to mitigation and the interplay between the ship classes is not.

I hoped that helped explain what "healing in this game is op" may mean.

Cheers!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
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