Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,464
# 21
01-03-2013, 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxrockssocks View Post
...However, it is not lost on me that dilithium is far harder to get in season 7.
Going on numbers last updated in late November, this was not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjcfoxtrot; 11-27-2012 at 09:02 PM
Available pool prior to Season 7: 12,960 to 16,920
Available pool post Season 7: 14,240 to 18,080

Excludes:
- Dilithium from Doffing
- Dilithium from Mining
- Dilithium from Marks conversion
Diltihium levels haven't fallen since then, and as you can see quite a lot of hefty sources have even been left out of those listings. Contrary to popular zonechat rethoric, dilithium is not hard to come by, particularly for a reputation system that is designed around a minimum input of 3 hours per week.
nynik | Join Date: Dec 2009
<Dev> Oaks@dstahl: *checks for CBS listening devices in the office*
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 23
# 22
01-03-2013, 07:36 AM
You sir, have put on paper, what loads of people think about this game.

But your biggest (and best) point is the devaluation of gold/life members.
For me that devaluation was a reason not to spent a dime more on this game, and that's not an effect PWE was aiming for, at least, I do hope they weren't aiming for that.

Last year alone I've spent close to a 1000 euros on this game, but after the ridiculous dil/fm/AA cap they've introduced with S7, the extra grinding they've put in, and the ridiculous costs for leveling fleet base/reputation, I simply refuse to give them more of my money. And somehow PWE doesn't (want??) to understand that they've gone a bit to far with their need for MOAR money
Buoyancy
That fine line between ship or submarine
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 78
# 23
01-03-2013, 08:49 AM
I don't want to take anything away from the original post or the well thought out comments made there. However, I do have one simple question...
Why play?

If you are playing for the in-game pay-off, then you are probably never going to be happy no matter what changes the developers make. Now I've played MMO's for a long time (3 years EQOA, 3 years WoW, 2.5 years CoH with no overlap, plus numerous other MMO's in-between), and this is something that is true no matter what game we are talking about.

You need to actually enjoy the game itself. It doesn't make sense to place all your enjoyment in the value of dilithium rewards or gear or in-game items, because once you acquire that then what do you do? If the process of getting those said items isn't rewarding into and of itself, then you are quite simply wasting your time.

I log in, play some STFs, do a mission or two, check out the Foundry and have a great time doing that. I am not overly focused on the "finish line" or the "end result". I am focused on simply playing. I don't play with the purpose of acquiring the tokens or rewards, I acquire these items as a consequence of playing a game I enjoy. (But it took me almost 9 years of MMOing to figure that out.)

If you are feeling (as the original post suggests) the "need to grind" then that is on you. You don't have to grind. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to max out your reputations for all twenty of your characters. If you enjoy doing that then fine, but the tone here is that most of you don't....
So don't do it. It's really that simple.

I really don't envy the developers on arguments such as this. If they make progression too easy or too quick (i.e. less grindy), then people complain that there is no challenge. If they make it too challenging, then people complain that the game is too hard and they are not motivated to try. The problem is that one persone's version of adequate challenge is not the same as someone else's.

Regardless of challenge, if you are NOT enjoying what you are doing to overcome that challenge, then once again you are wasting your time.

Last edited by haldan1968; 01-03-2013 at 08:52 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 31
# 24
01-03-2013, 09:04 AM
As a new (7 weeks) f2p player who has spent more on zen than 3 months gold sub... I guess you make some good points. But this is a very simple quick grind. I have 4 days left until t5 Rom/Omega (I didn't start Rep system stuff for at least a week after hitting VA); many of the tier requisition items, 8k Omega marks, 2k Romarks, 180k+ unrefined dil, ~400 Neural Processors - and that's just on my Fed. My newer KDF (~4 weeks) is casually up to t3 on both, with spare marks, tons of BNPs, unrefined dil overflow. Credits have not been a problem, even been outfitting newer fleet members in gear... hell I spend ~20mill a week on lockbox keys just for fun.

6-12 ESTFs a day on each toon... done. Credits/Marks/Dil - easy. Now yes, if you have 10 toons... it's 5 times more effort than my 2 toons - but that math checks out.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 316
# 25
01-03-2013, 09:34 AM
I don't particularly mind the Reputation System myself, but I do feel that the costs are too high in many areas for Dilithium. Yes we can all earn more dilithium now but the refinement cap is still too low. When you got Fleet Projects that are in the hundreds of thousands and then you've got reputation projects, it's not always going to be easy. Vanity projects annoy me the most, I don't see why making your Starbase look pretty should cost so much or even cost Dilithium at all (Starbase Provisions would be better IMO).

My fleet is gradually working through the Starbase Projects, but it does get disheartening at times, especially when we've got our own gear to work on. Many may say "Don't join a fleet" or "Join a bigger fleet", but I don't see why we should have to, not joining a fleet would be another aspect of the game I'm missing out on and the projects should be scaled based on Fleet Size (unique account names).

The increase in cost of upgrading the DoFF's is insane and trying to earn EC by crafting seems pointless, unless your swimming in dilithium. I make a few kits now and then to sell and make my EC that way or through drops in STFs, Events etc but it would be nice to see an importance bought back to crafting.

In all honesty, the dilithium system has been implemented so poorly, we'd be better off without it. If Cryptic spent less time worrying about throwing out content and new over powered ships at us and more time spent on fine tuning what we have and working out the bugs etc, people would still continue to spend money because we'd be getting a better service.

I also agree on the Gold Members situation. I feel that the extra perks a gold member gets over a free player is not alot and a suggestion like getting a higher return on Marks, Dilithium with STF runs or a reduction on project costs would be nice.

A free service is still a service and you shouldn't have to accept something so poor at times and even more so for the ones like myself who have put money into this game, be it with LTS or Pay Monthly.

You'd think they read their forums, but half the time it feels that they read what people want and then give us the opposite. I hope S8 gives us alot more to cheer about.


"We're doing it wrong, but it's working...."
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 14
# 26
01-03-2013, 10:23 AM
[quote=luxchristian;7332651]If you don't like grind then you really shouldn't play ANY MMO. WoW is one of the biggest MMO out there and it has a lot of marks, reps and gear grind.

"If you don't like it, don't play it" is a poor argument.

Correct, all these games have grind content, but also constant release other playable story telling gameplay content, rides, dungeons et cetera. For this critique you don't need the comparison to a major MMO like WoW. Simply take a look on Lotro; an other F2P example.
There are asia grinder and MMO's on the market. At the time STO acts like a asia grinder. - In my opinion improper to a license like Star Trek.

Don't missunderstand me: the grind content wouldn't be a problem with a matchable output of playable story content, rides, dungeons and so on.
Why don't put content packs on a regular basis to the C-Store?
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 27
01-03-2013, 02:06 PM
My feedback on S7 (and general STO playing experience):

I was away from the game for few months, left just before S7. Returned, installed, created a character. Played like 20-30 minuts and quit the game. Nothing has changed.

Quick scan through the missions: nope, nothing new. Look at PvP queues: nope, nothing new (or rather: no one, literally). Looked into inventory: yay, grind slots. Looked into C-Store: yay, new ships.

Content? Nope, no new content. Something new to PvP? Nope, nothing new to PvP (as in - there is no PvP at all, at least at start).

So my feedback on season 7 is definitely negative. S7 done nothing to make me want to return or to keep me playing. NOTHING. Repeating all the same, boring storyline I've gone through few dozen times without any hope on something new? No, thank you.

I read the description of season 7 and it's features. But it was so friggin dissapointing to see it with your own eyes.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16
# 28
01-03-2013, 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nynik View Post
Going on numbers last updated in late November, this was not the case.

Diltihium levels haven't fallen since then, and as you can see quite a lot of hefty sources have even been left out of those listings. Contrary to popular zonechat rethoric, dilithium is not hard to come by, particularly for a reputation system that is designed around a minimum input of 3 hours per week.

Nonsense. I like that more things give dilithium than before. Its still not enough. As I said before season 5, they should have added it to EVERYTHING, not just end game content and dailies and the like.

However, the fact is that it currently takes more time to get the same dilithium (ignoring the foundry daily change). This means there is less dilithium available, because per time invested, you get less. Further, a lot more dilithium is needed than before, which again means less is available because it is a time limited currency.


Quote:
Originally Posted by haldan1968 View Post
I don't want to take anything away from the original post or the well thought out comments made there. However, I do have one simple question...
Why play?

Exactly what I have been asking myself. Why play at all? I've been here since closed beta and played this game through its dullest moments, leveling KDF characters when there was only PVP for them. I've put a lot of effort into offering feedback and pointing out ways to improve the game, wrote a few simple guides, put together the original ship database, and have published some well regarded foundry missions.

Yet I only did any of that because I wanted to play the game. I could play it and have fun. I can't do that now without the shadow of the grind looming over me, which means all the other things I could do that don't involve the grind are far less interesting to me.

It is a very strange dichotomy for sure. I could do things that don't involve grind, but I don't want to because of the very grind I would be avoiding. Perhaps that makes sense, or perhaps not, but that is how it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jengaman View Post
As a new (7 weeks) f2p player who has spent more on zen than 3 months gold sub... I guess you make some good points. But this is a very simple quick grind. I have 4 days left until t5 Rom/Omega (I didn't start Rep system stuff for at least a week after hitting VA); many of the tier requisition items, 8k Omega marks, 2k Romarks, 180k+ unrefined dil, ~400 Neural Processors - and that's just on my Fed. My newer KDF (~4 weeks) is casually up to t3 on both, with spare marks, tons of BNPs, unrefined dil overflow. Credits have not been a problem, even been outfitting newer fleet members in gear... hell I spend ~20mill a week on lockbox keys just for fun.

6-12 ESTFs a day on each toon... done. Credits/Marks/Dil - easy. Now yes, if you have 10 toons... it's 5 times more effort than my 2 toons - but that math checks out.

And you spend how much time in game? I am certain I don't have nearly as much time as you do. Before season 7, and even 5, I could spend the time I have in game and get more for my time, feel like I accomplished something, or screw around and have fun and just put it off till later because its not some daunting grind that really needs to be dealt with regularly. Worse, is that because its largely time limited, if I DO have the time to really grind stuff, and want to work on a character I can only do so much at one time, like with Romulan marks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by luxchristian View Post
Blah blah blah
I considered replying to your points, but the utter disrespect with which you presented them has overruled that thought.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
*sigh...

And another thread that really shouldn't be called feedback, because again, no suggestions for improvements, just complaints.
You either did not read my entire post, or have no idea what "suggestions for improvements" actually means. I'm honestly confused because you then went on to claim one of those very suggestions ridiculous, with nothing to even support your assertion. So thank you for posting. Next time please read and comprehend what was written.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 29
01-03-2013, 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxrockssocks View Post
Nonsense. I like that more things give dilithium than before. Its still not enough. As I said before season 5, they should have added it to EVERYTHING, not just end game content and dailies and the like.

However, the fact is that it currently takes more time to get the same dilithium (ignoring the foundry daily change). This means there is less dilithium available, because per time invested, you get less. Further, a lot more dilithium is needed than before, which again means less is available because it is a time limited currency....


...You either did not read my entire post, or have no idea what "suggestions for improvements" actually means. I'm honestly confused because you then went on to claim one of those very suggestions ridiculous, with nothing to even support your assertion. So thank you for posting. Next time please read and comprehend what was written.
Ok. So for starters, allow me to call major BS on your claim that it takes longer to get Dil than before. Let's take your normal method of getting Dil... your average ESTF. Yes, it only gives 960 dil, but guess what, it gives 60-100+ omega marks. And guess what? You can turn those omega marks into dilithium. So your ESTF will actually have the potential to give you 1460-1960 dil, whereas the S6 ones only gave you 1100... hm... Also the difficulty and time it takes is about the same. Hm... I can really see how that's been reduced.

Next up, the dil mining daily. That's 7 minutes of your life that used to give 500 dil, a time taken that has never changed. Now it gives 1000. I can see how that's been greatly reduced. As for fleet actions? They used to give jack crap in dil. Now they reliably give you 480-960 (plus another 960 if you are doing the fleet daily one). I can see how that's been greatly reduced as well.

I can see how dil income has been greatly reduced considering how horribly long it takes to get now. Thank you for the edification.

As for me commenting that you are just whining? Um... take a step back, get off your high horse, get your head out of your rear, and actually read your post. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, since I too am suffering from the dil sink (my zen income has dropped exponentially ever since I started the projects for the rep system... 32k for a piece of romulan/reman space gear HURTS...), but about 3 paragraphs in, I stopped taking you seriously, about halfway through your post my head hurt from the sheer amount of whining, and after I finished reading your post (yes bonehead, I actually read your whole post, and ironically enough a large amount of this entire thread too), I just couldn't understand why you could justify all that complaining.

You never asked how to make it easier to do. I know a ton of players that went through the rep system, got to tier 5, and NEVER complained. They looked around, found easy ways to get it done, and just did it. It's just frankly astonishing that you found almost NOTHING you liked about the new system.

Here's a few changes that were GOOD.

Reman mk XII purple set: now you don't have to grind the vault like a madman. You have a guaranteed (albeit rather long) method of getting that gear. You don't have to rely on your DOffs (many of which I know many of us wish we could shoot out an airlock), and you just need dil, exp, some power cells, replicators, and marks. All of which can be gotten with moderate ease (albeit the 32k dil is a little pricey, but hey, it's supposedly top end gear, so I guess it can be justified).

Omega Gear (mk XII): now guaranteed method of getting it. I can get it in the space of a few days, as opposed to weeks of running the same mission over and over and over, and being rewarded with the headache of someone else getting the proto tech and me being stuck with a few EDCs and some PoS blue drop.

That's two examples from each rep system of a change that was an improvement. And your thread is whining. Nothing more. Some players may agree with you, but there are others who like the fact that there is now a guaranteed way of getting these items. And as for the dil sink? Top of the line gear costs dil. Fleet gear, Spiral waves, other goodies. And since STF gear is considered high end and top of the line, guess what, it now costs equal to the rest of the gear in it's class.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16
# 30
01-04-2013, 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Stuff.

Dilithium is surely easier to get, that must be why the market is crashing and the value is skyrocketing, right? Its not a contributing factor that everything costs dilithium now, things that did not cost dilithium before in the reputation system, nor that EDC, rare salvage, and even tech turn ins are gone did not contribute to that, neither is it relevant that marks can't be spent on dilithium if you are still chasing 4500+ marks to get through the reputation system and a single MK XII set. It can't be a contributing factor that people can't even get entry level purples any more without spending a ton of dilithium.

Dilithium is worth more now than ever before, not because its easier to get, but because it is scarce, very much so.


Now I don't know why you feel the need to get hostile because I have a different opinion and perspective than you do, but maybe you should take a step back and realize that season 7 is not fun for a lot of people, as can be seen in this thread. I've listed my issues, and offered suggestions for improvement, and all you have done is try to belittle my opinion and suggestions by claiming it is nothing but whining.
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