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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,365
# 81
01-05-2013, 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
Turrets are Cannons, and suffer the same range penalties. That Beams do not have nearly as much issues with. They also don't have access to BO. And you already mentioned spam cleanse.
*info from Maelwys always reliable testing*

Beams deal 64% damage at max range, 84% at 5km
Cannons deal 40% damage at max range, 72% at 5km


Not a huge range penalty till you hit extreme range. For pressure damage I would think a CRF with glider and/or DEM would work better than BO but not really sure.

Big question I have is does anyone have an example of an innate beam accuracy bonus test that has established this as a fact? Beyond FaW bug that is.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,591
# 82
01-05-2013, 06:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
Yes... since dealing top score in pugs means sooo much.

Actually it's not a perfect storm. It's not even close to min maxing. Not if you are fighting anyone better than some scrub pugs anyway. You're eating all of those eng slots (2 of the more important ones especially on a ship without LTC eng), and eating a large portion of your ability to support your allies. Cannons eat boff skills and or doffs like Pez Candy.

Now -I- am loling. You are lacking one of the best heal skills in the game if not the best assuming you're going for the total swing for the fences and having Plas3 or DEM3 in the Cmdr. (and you probably have EPTS3 in the spot below it) Or, are you going to use the Pathetic version of EPTS, EPTS1 which doesn't even come close to measuring up?

But hey if you wanna confuse being a Pugstar for actually bein usable. Be my guest.
You -still- aren't going to match the burst potential of an Escort, and your spam clearing capability just went into the toilet for going Fed Cannons. Oh and your burst damage? Welcome to The Suck Levels. I hope you enjoy your stay there. The only cannons the Excels can run are Singles, which are far far from being hot shots.

If your enemys are capable of moving around alot, teleporting or using the Z axis you're screwed. My ship on the other hand will just keep chugging along.

You've built a ''great'' (for a cruiser lol) offense platform And ate everything else in the process.
KDF side, the build works better because you have access to 2 tac stations. Lt Cmdr. You don't even need aux to batt to be a real crank monster on the FV. It still eating a healthy portion of it's capabity though as a cruiser if you aren't just rolling your face on the board like an idiot and hoping space bar and DHCs will be enough.

Beams are Low Opportunity Cost Weapons. They also have access to the second best spike damage skill in the game, in Beam Overload. It takes little if not 0 effort to run a hot loaded beam boat.
you swap from lighthearted pug talk to serious premade everything is fail talk so fast my neck herts. i think you believe i take my lol tac excelsior more seriously then i actually do. its a pug toy yes, thats all it is. because bringing a heal boat to a random pug again and again has proven to be a waited effort. you cant help the helpless, no mater how much ES and auxiliary power you have. pugs are escorts online. only when you add a tiny bit of organization does it become lol healz and VM+SNB online.

you dont see me trying to join major fleets, you don't see me in organized premades, im just doing what i find fun, and making things work in a way they are not intended to way better then they should entertains me.

your building beam array healer garbage man ships, and thats good! thats what a cruiser is, thats all they are supposed to be able to amount to, thats what they are most useful for in a premade seting. i have the ships on standby that i would build into actual healers, it sure as hell wouldn't be an excelsior.

as far as the lol cannon excelsior goes, z axis is my best friend. and you brought up score boards first if you remember. EPtS1 works fine when you can actually threaten your opponent and not just hope he goes away after he shoots at you with no effect for a period of time. and as if 8 beam array cruisers have any burst, or as much pressure. just like the rest of their damage, even their BO's are just piss in the wind in a serious arena setting. even when there are healers present in an arena setting, with the cannons i can harm someone enough to cause healer panic, and targets to be switched to the guy im mauling. i cant finish anyone off, but my damage is having much more of an effect. ive been in these situations and swapped back and forth with beams and cannons and its the same thing every time. the cannons have more effect, in everything pugmade and below.

if the 2 escorts on your team have a copy of CSV1 all but the spamiest carrier teams are easily handled. 1 sci ship with TBR can fire it off near siphon drones and instantly rescue someone from them. a LTC station used to dirty the play field is extreamly hazordus to spam, and can hold and greatly endanger a player ships too. some cruiser with beams and FAW is not our only spam clearing hope.


the DHC kdf cruiser is also a bit lol, but a lot closer to being serious. the entire faction is lol if you really think about it. it actually CAN do an escorts job for it, in a different way. and if your kdf, you should be using fed pattern orian cruisers or lockbox ships if you want to make healers, kdf cruiser are built to be faux escorts, thats were they are good at something. other wise your flying a ship inferiors to a fed cruiser stat wise with beam arrays, that turns better for no reason or advantage.


this is why i made this thread though. the game would be more interesting if all but the most down the line builds weren't so lol. so beam arrays, singles, and for god sake at least DCs should be buffed, in the way i proposed, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
The OP of this thread thinks that Beams Suck. Because he's just running Aux 2 batt builds. Which tremendously diminish durability.

Let's recap what your boffs look like either
A
EPTS1, A2Batt, (if you're not going Total selfish) ES2, DEM3
EPTS1, A2Batt
Eng Team1
And have total Crap for SDR in the process.

or
EPTS1, Aux 2 batt, EPTS3, DEM3
EPTA1, Aux2 batt
ET

Now let's look at mine shall we?
EPTS1, Extend1, EPTS3, Plas3
EPTW1, either ET2, or RSP1
EPTW1

Or Alt load.
EPTA1, EPTS2, Extend 2, DEM3
EPTS1, RSP
EPTA1

Your Tac slots.
TT, APD1 (since everything SHOULD be in global) CRF2

Mine
TT, APD1, Bo3
ALT. TT, BO2, BO3
Alt, TT, FAW2 FAW3

SCI: Yours
HE, TSS... with crap aux most of the time

Mine
PH, TSS good aux capability.
Or
Tractor, TSS
or, HE1, FPB1

Now in an honest Premade Fight, which one is going to help their team more? Something that's a second rate DPS dealer. Or a second rate DPS dealer, that also has secondary healing capability?
I know which my money is on.
jeeze, with those builds you dont know AtB very well. you only need 1 copy of EPtS, no copies of EPtW, and EPtA is very helpful to make sure you always have about 30 aux at least. on the 100% offense focused lol tac excelsior i have DEM3 and RSP2. both at global. but also ET1, HE2, TSS1 as well, also at global. and a large amount of aux batts on tap. so i can actually throw these heals twice as often, and use a battery to max their effectiveness too. ive takes ES instead of RSP several times, but it doesn't work well with AtB. its unaffected by it during the active 30 seconds, only the inactive 15 seconds can be effected. at most i can use it 5 seconds earlier. and yes i slot and throw APD pretty often too.

so heals twice as often, maybe not the strongest heals, but they can be every 2 minutes, or every 1 minute with a purple batery doff. my SDR is crap? well, my ~120 shield power would disagree with you, all that extra power is another bonus from AtB. i also got that steam runner console, 1 or 2 BFI doffs, EPtS at global, TSS at global, RSP at global if i slot it, ya my shields are sooo fail.

for an LOL ship, its not bad. wile dealing so much more pressure damage then any fed cruiser has a right too. still its not as durable as a non AtB cruiser, hilbert proved that, but it didn't have any illusions that it was.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 83
01-05-2013, 06:51 PM
You can help them. But you have to feed them ES and tac team

The Whole of KDF is lulz. The only thing they have -are- their cruisers.



Well it's not like those ensigns are going to be useful for anything else
Might as well stuff them with powers. You might have 120 shield power, but you're not getting the significant difference of EPTS3 to 1. There's a pretty large gap there, particularly for damage cruisers fedside.

You can throw twice as often, but how often will you have good aux when you throw them?

My point is, you're saying that DHCs are imba, when you are not looking at the larger picture and the sacrifices you have to make to run them successfully (or even single barrels for that matter).

Beams have super low Opp Costs. And they have access to some of the best spike in the game when properly used. Beams require the least focus, and effort to use correctly, they are a multitasker's dream weapon because of this. They shouldn't be doing as much overall damage (not even comparable) as DHCs do.

There would be 0 point DHCs if they were.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,742
# 84
01-05-2013, 07:05 PM
Well there is a difference between DHC being imba... and just plain being better then everything else.

I run lots of DHC... yes they take some more work to arc properly ect... still they are way over powered compared to everything else.

Does anyone run DC ? exactly

Does anyone run Singles ? (outside of stupid dot and glider builds) Exactly

There is only one serious option for cannons DHC... why is that... because they are 10x better then everything else plain and simple.

Should beams be = to DHC... of course not...

I also wouldn't say beams are useless.... however there long firing cycles make them a power pig for the return in terms of Dmg.

Honestly the easiest fix is to return the Weapon power system to where it was before some idiot dev decided Weapons should magikly return all power they where using when a cycle ends.... that was a MASSIVE boost to the power efficient short cycle DHC... Power pops back so fast you don't even have to screw around with Beam Overloads anymore to get them to hit at 125 weapon power... FULL auto even with overloads poping is fine, the way the system is setup right now.... It is a 100% no skill system as it is now... weapon power management, don't make me laugh this game doesn't have that anymore.

Force the no talent 4 dhc escort players to slot 1-2 EPS units to feed there all energy setups. (YES I know Husanak calling 4dhc players skilless I know the irony)
As it is it is far to easy to just slot 2-3 Neuts or a couple crit consoles... cause power is no issue.

The way I would fix it if I worked for Cryptic...
1) Return weapon power use to the way it used to be and power had to regen at EPS speed.
2) Give ALL weapons a balance pass... in terms of Cycle times, and power use.

The idea being... to Keep Escort BURST up... while forcing build decisions in terms of power management, to keep sustained dmg up. (right now escort sustained dmg is way to high... anyone that crys but but 45 degrees is full of it... I play escorts the chances of someone NOT being in my arc if I want them to be bad enough is about zero)
Also to make other weapons outside of DHC more attractive.
This would also serve to boost the Engi Captain skills back up... there was a time when Nadion and EPS in fact mattered.... now there nice but hardly game changing. Really wth is the point of Nadion... you can get always on versions of the same effect with Omega Amp... and things like the Marion Dem Doff.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,499
# 85
01-05-2013, 11:34 PM
Something about DHC vs SBA base damage seems out of balance (that includes the "DHC > DC" issue, the "low power drain per damage" issue, and possibly the "beams can't kill anything" issue).

But what Shimmerless wrote is right, too, I think: the boff powers for beams are just not sufficiently varied.

Basically we have one spam-clearing AOE power (FAW), and then only powers that are just as useful if you have 1 beam as if you have 8 (BO, TS). There is no "Beam broadside damage enhancement" power like there is CRF for cannons, which would increase damage of the whole broadside.

One can easily see all these issues in a "broadside beam escort vs dhc escort" comparison... the broadside beam escort is on par with the DHC escort essentially only in a duel vs. the DHC escort, and only because its firing arcs allow the beam broadside escort to circle around and reduce the DHC escort's dps... undless it is immobilized somehow. Killing a third target, however, shows how blatantly superior the DHC escort is. The SBA escort sure should be a bit less "punchy", but not that much, IMHO.
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Last edited by sophlogimo; 01-05-2013 at 11:38 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,742
# 86
01-05-2013, 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Basically we have one spam-clearing AOE power (FAW), and then only powers that are just as useful if you have 1 beam as if you have 8 (BO, TS). There is no "Beam broadside damage enhancement" power like there is CRF for cannons, which would increase damage of the whole broadside.
That is where under the OLD power management system the Engi Skills came into play.

DEM

Emergency Power to Weapons...

And crazy enough

EPS power transfer
and
Nadion

There was a time where running EPTW 3 on a cruiser wasn't a crazy idea... cause the extra power overcaping was a major advantage as power had to regen, and the power didn't stay used up while the weapon was cycling. In other words you fire, the power is drained and then returns at EPS rate... instead of just staying used till the cycled eneded and then boom back it was. This favored broadsides from Engis... cause they could rock EPS and Nadion back and forth with a EPTW 1-3... to keep there broadside doing its thing all the time. Or they could blow there cool downs and in fact spike a little.

Now with the long cycle times on beams and that power being locked out for the entire long cycle of the beam arrays... things like EPS and nadion basicly do nothing at all for DPS... they make broadsiding Engis a joke... frankly they often don't have the fire power to control the spam never mind pressure any heals.

The current power setup basicly penalizes any setup that doesn't have a rapid cycle time... hence DHC are the best weapon option.

The old power setup had a bit of an issue in where say an escort rocking 2 EPS units could provide 110+ power to every Cannon fired pretty much all the time... but lets be honest with the 2 piece KCB + borg console Omega Amp proc... thats the case now anyway... so really going back to that type of system wouldnt' increase Escort DPS... in fact it would drop the DPS on second volleys unless escorts made sure to run an EPS unit... which would be at least a small trade in survivability... it would be a nice boost I think to beam array cruisers.... in that power would not be locked up for excessively long firing cycles... however drain would still be high enough that 1) engi captain skills could shine again... and 2) tac cruisers would have to dedicate the same EPS unit as the escorts would to provide good sustained dmg.

PS... granted the old system basicly had us playing Cruisers Online... and there is a possibility that going back to that system could end us up back there again where 9 out of 10 pugs are in a damn assault cruiser... I do think though with the newer toys escorts aren't as squishy as they where back then and it won't be an issue now.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 01-05-2013 at 11:58 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,591
# 87
01-06-2013, 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
You can help them. But you have to feed them ES and tac team

The Whole of KDF is lulz. The only thing they have -are- their cruisers.



Well it's not like those ensigns are going to be useful for anything else
Might as well stuff them with powers. You might have 120 shield power, but you're not getting the significant difference of EPTS3 to 1. There's a pretty large gap there, particularly for damage cruisers fedside.

You can throw twice as often, but how often will you have good aux when you throw them?

My point is, you're saying that DHCs are imba, when you are not looking at the larger picture and the sacrifices you have to make to run them successfully (or even single barrels for that matter).

Beams have super low Opp Costs. And they have access to some of the best spike in the game when properly used. Beams require the least focus, and effort to use correctly, they are a multitasker's dream weapon because of this. They shouldn't be doing as much overall damage (not even comparable) as DHCs do.

There would be 0 point DHCs if they were.
the problem with 3 ens eng cruisers is that you dont really have the option to use EPtS3, plus thats a prety big waist of your only eng LTC console anyway. a 125 aux HE2 will heal just over 1000 a tic, and an accidental use of HE at 5 aux will still heal 400 a tic. they still do a pretty good amount of healing.

i haven't been trying to say DHC are imbalanced or overpowered, they are just a weapon that works well, its not like they are an i win button, i think of all the others as inadequate. what are these sacrifices for running DHCs? i certainly haven't come across any. well maybe 2 things, careful flying is 1, generous use of holds on slower ships being the other.

beams just do their thing on thier own, you right. that thing is next to nothing though, when the equivalent ship on the other faction can use DHCs easily for actual effective damage. thats why the go to weapons for fed cruisers, beam arrays and single cannons, deserve an effectiveness boost. not to be as good, but to have a simmilar advantage/disadvantage relationship as working very well DHCs have. thats what this post here was all about. they would still do much less damage then DHCs, but they wouldn't amount to only really background noise anymore. the beam array buff would only make arrays about as good as they were when faw was accurate, and there was only 1 target around.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 88
01-06-2013, 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the problem with 3 ens eng cruisers is that you dont really have the option to use EPtS3, plus thats a prety big waist of your only eng LTC console anyway. a 125 aux HE2 will heal just over 1000 a tic, and an accidental use of HE at 5 aux will still heal 400 a tic. they still do a pretty good amount of healing.

i haven't been trying to say DHC are imbalanced or overpowered, they are just a weapon that works well, its not like they are an i win button, i think of all the others as inadequate. what are these sacrifices for running DHCs? i certainly haven't come across any. well maybe 2 things, careful flying is 1, generous use of holds on slower ships being the other.

beams just do their thing on thier own, you right. that thing is next to nothing though, when the equivalent ship on the other faction can use DHCs easily for actual effective damage. thats why the go to weapons for fed cruisers, beam arrays and single cannons, deserve an effectiveness boost. not to be as good, but to have a simmilar advantage/disadvantage relationship as working very well DHCs have. thats what this post here was all about. they would still do much less damage then DHCs, but they wouldn't amount to only really background noise anymore. the beam array buff would only make arrays about as good as they were when faw was accurate, and there was only 1 target around.
And how much of a difference does that give you over the full 15 second duration. You're looking at 6k at Crap Aux levels, versus, 15,000. To say nothing of the large resistance value difference between the two skills. That's a huge hit.

Unless you don't run Aux 2 batt. Then you suddenly get room for EPTS3

Sure there are. Let's look at the Fleet Torkhat for example. Now, in order for it to be -effective- with DHCs it must run the Plas. Either Plas1 or 3. That means it no longer has access to run EPTS3. Or Extend 2, or ASIF2. It's other slot more than likely will also have to be a damage skill which means either a second plas, or DEM. This leaves it with LT and an Ens in order to shield tank effectively. Unless you're trying to run aux 2 batt, that means EPTS2, and 1. With likely EPTE1, or EPTA1 in the last slot.
He will also have to run CRF2, and CRF1. Leaving the Torkat with 2 ens and 1 lt power in tactical. And you're pretty much useless against anything with your turn rate, that has better inertia. (which is every Escort in the game and a good host of sci ships. Namely the Nova, Recon, and probably the Vesta) that's another big hit. Where as a beam boat, can burn them down and not have to worry about arcs nearly as much.

Also, you're vastly underestimating beam damage potential. I can -melt- people, premade v premade in the Old Excelsior (Thanks for the fleet mod to get the newer version by the way ) It also has access to the best spike in the game. Which on a Single Array, can hit for 90k, in the same situations that you -have- to have in order to even use Cannons (singles even) on a Cruiser. What's easier to heal through, a few 5k, to 11k crits or one big 18-90k single shot? I did that without even fully Decked weapons. (which I am working on. at least securing all the proper mods. Acc CrtDX2)

Beams on all but a tac captain yes are a joke. But we both know Eng damage is a complete farce anyway, even with DHCs to steroid him up, and Sci only does damage with DHCs because of Sub Nuke's power. Otherwise beams are -supposed- to be background damage. Also without that ''useless beam damage'' you'd -never- overcome SDR and HDR.

Sure an Escort is going to do 2x damage of a tac beam excelsior, if the excelsior can not effectively setup zone control. But said Escort has less than 1/2 of the effective support ability of the tac excels. And a much less capable setup for establishing zone control at the same time.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,599
# 89
01-06-2013, 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
Beams on all but a tac captain yes are a joke. But we both know Eng damage is a complete farce anyway
Here I disagree, I fly an engineer in a fleet Excel specced for a nice balance of damage and tank with a small side helping of team support and I perform better in that then my tac does in the RA version of the ship, the eng lasts longer and outputs better which surprised me as my tac is specced for max dmg output from an escort.
Tacofangs is (genuinely) the best dev ever and the forumites adore him
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,499
# 90
01-06-2013, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
You can help them. But you have to feed them ES and tac team

The Whole of KDF is lulz. The only thing they have -are- their cruisers.



Well it's not like those ensigns are going to be useful for anything else
Might as well stuff them with powers. You might have 120 shield power, but you're not getting the significant difference of EPTS3 to 1. There's a pretty large gap there, particularly for damage cruisers fedside.

You can throw twice as often, but how often will you have good aux when you throw them?

My point is, you're saying that DHCs are imba, when you are not looking at the larger picture and the sacrifices you have to make to run them successfully (or even single barrels for that matter).

Beams have super low Opp Costs. And they have access to some of the best spike in the game when properly used. Beams require the least focus, and effort to use correctly, they are a multitasker's dream weapon because of this. They shouldn't be doing as much overall damage (not even comparable) as DHCs do.

There would be 0 point DHCs if they were.
In addition to the KDF cruisers the KDF Vet ship is a nice option now, fyi. Unfortunately, they gave the Fleet B'rel a 4th Eng console instead of Sci console ...
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