Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,503
# 131
01-06-2013, 09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordagamemnonb5 View Post



Getting lucky is no achievement.
WHAT? I wasted my Teen years for nothing?!?!?!

lol could not resist a setup like that
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 544
# 132
01-07-2013, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoakiraii View Post
WHAT? I wasted my Teen years for nothing?!?!?!

lol could not resist a setup like that
Hmm, I guess I did leave it open for that setup LOL.
Most JJ Trek hate = IDIC fail.
Quote:
Most who don't like the new Star Trek either didn't like TOS, don't remember TOS, or didn't see TOS
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 203
# 133
01-07-2013, 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordagamemnonb5 View Post
Actually, no it wouldn't. I can say that since my feelings are the same, having been lucky enough to get a full set of gear while playing SWTOR. All it did was serve to agrivate, since nothing skill wise matter, all I had to do was get lucky (hell, in this game pre-S7 you could sit back, do nothing, and just hope you get something). At least with the Rep system I have to put in some actual work.



You missed the point. The quote doesn't make a comparison, it is a what-if; what-if the dev's paycheck depended on RNG, how would they feel? Same principle. You work at something only to have some arbitrary RNG say "not your turn" while someone who did didly gets a good roll.




I already acknowledged that.



Well, the previous system was also a time investment so you have no point there. And, I also acknowledged the rather exorbatant costs involved.



Well, for those of us with lives, I think being able to put a little something in when I can is a good system, rather than continue to do something in the hopes that I might get a chance at getting. At least now, I can see what I am working for.




Getting lucky is no achievement.
You missed the point completely. It's not down to 'getting lucky', this game might not require it in a high regard but most MMO's need you to have a VERY good group together that is SKILLED in THEIR classes in order to complete the instances and have a CHANCE at the loot. It's not a matter of throwing some dregs together for a STF and just hoping the noobs understand the 10% rule or something. You need a skilled group, that is not luck. The luck part only had to do with the rolls on the piece at the end if you made it that far. Like I said, if you would rather pay for everything then more power to you. Many of us do not, for the reasons I already pointed out and probably more.

Last edited by trellabor; 01-07-2013 at 09:33 AM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,503
# 134
01-07-2013, 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trellabor View Post
You missed the point completely. It's not down to 'getting lucky', this game might not require it in a high regard but most MMO's need you to have a VERY good group together that is SKILLED in THEIR classes in order to complete the instances and have a CHANCE at the loot. It's not a matter of throwing some dregs together for a STF and just hoping the noobs understand the 10% rule or something. You need a skilled group, that is not luck. The luck part only had to do with the rolls on the piece at the end if you made it that far. Like I said, if you would rather pay for everything then more power to you. Many of us do not, for the reasons I already pointed out and probably more.
Then don't pay...Why are you paying my god man, you don't need to pay...why are you wasting money when you don't need to pay
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 544
# 135
01-07-2013, 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trellabor View Post
You missed the point completely. It's not down to 'getting lucky', this game might not require it in a high regard but most MMO's need you to have a VERY good group together that is SKILLED in THEIR classes in order to complete the instances and have a CHANCE at the loot. It's not a matter of throwing some dregs together for a STF and just hoping the noobs understand the 10% rule or something. You need a skilled group, that is not luck. The luck part only had to do with the rolls on the piece at the end if you made it that far. Like I said, if you would rather pay for everything then more power to you. Many of us do not, for the reasons I already pointed out and probably more.

Sure, you need skill to complete the mission, but the end result required no skill at all. We put in the same amount of work, so why should RNG decide I don't get anything for my efforts?

An example: two soldiers on the firing range, each displaying skill enough to knock down 40 out of 40 targets with one round each. This brings up the company's score to best in the battalion. Their skill helped the whole team when. But then the commander decides to take soldier A out for a steak dinner. Why not soldier B? Surely the commander can afford both? Well, the commander just randomly deicded to treat soldier A. Soldier B will have to wait until the next competiton, and hope the commander decides it's his turn for recognition.

Same principle. Why should person A get rewarded for what was a team effort? Why should persons B, C and D get left out?

And what payment am I making that is so god awful it is an afront to man? If you mean the dilithium, big friggin deal, it's not like that stuff is hard to come buy. The stuff requiring EC isn't hard, as EC is very easy to come buy. The marks, I will give you that one; you do need alot of marks to unlock the ability to pay more marks to get the items.
Most JJ Trek hate = IDIC fail.
Quote:
Most who don't like the new Star Trek either didn't like TOS, don't remember TOS, or didn't see TOS

Last edited by lordagamemnonb5; 01-07-2013 at 10:03 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 203
# 136
01-07-2013, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordagamemnonb5 View Post
Sure, you need skill to complete the mission, but the end result required no skill at all. We put in the same amount of work, so why should RNG decide I don't get anything for my efforts?

An example: two soldiers on the firing range, each displaying skill enough to knock down 40 out of 40 targets with one round each. This brings up the company's score to best in the battalion. Their skill helped the whole team when. But then the commander decides to take soldier A out for a steak dinner. Why not soldier B? Surely the commander can afford both? Well, the commander just randomly deicded to treat soldier A. Soldier B will have to wait until the next competiton, and hope the commander decides it's his turn for recognition.

Same principle. Why should person A get rewarded for what was a team effort? Why should persons B, C and D get left out?
I feel that the reward (or chance at it) should reflect the skill and effort displayed by the players in the group, not just whether they 'show up' or not. Let's say using your scenario, a soldier needs 40 hits to take everyone on the squad to dinner, only 5 to get himself taken to dinner. If soldier 'A' completes his 40 and soldier 'B' only hits 5, should he still go to dinner? He helped some, but he isn't trying very hard or caring very much about being a part of the Team, he just wants to get his own dinner and be done with it. Deserving? Maybe of a Lunchable or a granola bar, not going to dinner on the LT's dime. But again that's just my opinion. It would be nice if there was a slightly larger focus on 'Team' activities and working together....this game feels directed toward solo content lately.

I am against paying to pay again to pay to unlock something I just paid for previously so I can now pay to use it.

Last edited by trellabor; 01-07-2013 at 10:23 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 544
# 137
01-07-2013, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trellabor View Post
I feel that the reward (or chance at it) should reflect the skill and effort displayed by the players in the group, not just whether they 'show up' or not. Let's say using your scenario, a soldier needs 40 hits to take everyone on the squad to dinner, only 5 to get himself taken to dinner. If soldier 'A' completes his 40 and soldier 'B' only hits 5, should he still go to dinner? He helped some, but he isn't trying very hard or caring very much about being a part of the Team, he just wants to get his own dinner and be done with it. Deserving? Maybe of a Lunchable or a granola bar, not going to dinner on the LT's dime.

Looks like you are trying to shoehorn my scenario into your point. That scenario makes no sense but that is my fault for bringing it up and assuming people would automatically get it (in the Army, a soldier needs to hit 23 to qualify, 36 to gain expert, and many commanders have incentives for hitting all 40, and many battalions make a competition between the companies for best overall score). So no soldier would get rewarded with anything for only hitting 5 targets., and would probably get his initial score discounted from the overall score. Hell, he would probably be disciplined for sucking so bad but I digress.

Ulitmately though, your scenario kind of illustrates the point of the rep system; since the original reward is luck based, for many of the STf's (ISE is an example) you could barely pull your weight and still come out with rewards that those who worked for won't get because of a computer algarithim.
Most JJ Trek hate = IDIC fail.
Quote:
Most who don't like the new Star Trek either didn't like TOS, don't remember TOS, or didn't see TOS
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,573
# 138
01-07-2013, 11:15 AM
Honestly - NO content in STO requires the level of end-game skill or coordination (when compared to end game 'Raids' like in the original EverQuest, or World of ********). NONE.

A couple of the STFs require minimal coordination of a regular 5 man instance; BUT, you still had (and have the situation) where someone can go AFK, yet STILL get full rewards (or in the 'old days' prior to STO Season 7 - a MkXII M.A.C.O./Omega/Honor Guard set piece drop),

Thus in the end, sorry, I don't see the argument of:

"In the 'old days' of STFs gear was an indication of 'player skill'"

As honestly, that has never really been the case for STO - ever. It's as truly casual with regard to end game as an MMO can get.

The days of 'truly exceptional/rare' gear held by less than 1% of an MMOs player population (allowing said 'exceptional' players to garner 'awe' from those unable to really obtain such gear) are pretty much gone - even in games like EQ and WoW these days.

It's the same as players claiming the current level of 'grind' in STO is at the levels of a true 'Asian Grind' style MMO. As someone who played vanilla EQ back in 1999 - 2003; and vanilla WoW and Burning Crusade (backed off when WotLK hit) from 2005-2009; and who out of curiosity tried a few Asian F2P based MMOs (known for Grind) I can tell you STO's 'grind' (with all the Reputation and Starbase stuff, which I too participate in) is NOWHERE near the level that EQ, or WoW (in the era above) were; nor even close to a true 'Asian Grind' MMO.

That doesn't mean you have to like it, or accept it; but personally I find the 'STO is an Asian grindfest' claim seems to be used a lot by players who have no idea how bad that (or EQ back in the early days <--- This is teh model most Asian grind MMOs followed. And we're talking things like a Named MOB needed to complete a quest spawning ONCE a week in real time; the rest of the time it was placeholder MOBs) truly was/is.

You'll be hard pressed to find any successful 'feat/combat based' progression MMO out there that doesn't have 'grind' of some sort.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=91861979000&dateline=  1340755546
PWE Drone says, "Your STO community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 203
# 139
01-07-2013, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordagamemnonb5 View Post
Looks like you are trying to shoehorn my scenario into your point. That scenario makes no sense but that is my fault for bringing it up and assuming people would automatically get it (in the Army, a soldier needs to hit 23 to qualify, 36 to gain expert, and many commanders have incentives for hitting all 40, and many battalions make a competition between the companies for best overall score). So no soldier would get rewarded with anything for only hitting 5 targets., and would probably get his initial score discounted from the overall score. Hell, he would probably be disciplined for sucking so bad but I digress.
We can agree to disagree then and that's fine, I'm not trying to convince you my opinion is 'correct', simply to just see it. I don't like the Rep system because it isn't fun, and requires us to pay for items that previously we only need invest time into. You choose to pay, and I do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordagamemnonb5 View Post
Ulitmately though, your scenario kind of illustrates the point of the rep system; since the original reward is luck based, for many of the STf's (ISE is an example) you could barely pull your weight and still come out with rewards that those who worked for won't get because of a computer algarithim.
Unfortunately, this still applies under the new system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticarmsman View Post
It's the same as players claiming the current level of 'grind' in STO is at the levels of a true 'Asian Grind' style MMO. As someone who played vanilla EQ back in 1999 - 2003; and vanilla WoW and Burning Crusade (backed off when WotLK hit) from 2005-2009; and who out of curiosity tried a few Asian F2P based MMOs (known for Grind) I can tell you STO's 'grind' (with all the Reputation and Starbase stuff, which I too participate in) is NOWHERE near the level that EQ, or WoW (in the era above) were; nor even close to a true 'Asian Grind' MMO.

That doesn't mean you have to like it, or accept it; but personally I find the 'STO is an Asian grindfest' claim seems to be used a lot by players who have no idea how bad that (or EQ back in the early days <--- This is teh model most Asian grind MMOs followed. And we're talking things like a Named MOB needed to complete a quest spawning ONCE a week in real time; the rest of the time it was placeholder MOBs) truly was/is.

You'll be hard pressed to find any successful 'feat/combat based' progression MMO out there that doesn't have 'grind' of some sort.
I do not think this game has an 'Asian Grind' to it, at all. It has a 'Western' grind to it in my opinion, one that requires spending and I don't mean time. 'Asian Grinds' to me involve grinding the same mobs/instances over and over and over for drops, much like we were used to with the OLD STF's, albeit a dumbed down version of it. I remember when **** first came out, I had never experienced anything that grindy and to this day still haven't(they 'Westernized' it so its not that way anymore however). What we have now, to me, isn't a grind on much of anything except potentially your wallet/bank account, and sometimes your patience.

Last edited by trellabor; 01-07-2013 at 11:47 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 140
01-07-2013, 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trellabor View Post
You missed the point completely. It's not down to 'getting lucky', this game might not require it in a high regard but most MMO's need you to have a VERY good group together that is SKILLED in THEIR classes in order to complete the instances and have a CHANCE at the loot. It's not a matter of throwing some dregs together for a STF and just hoping the noobs understand the 10% rule or something. You need a skilled group, that is not luck. The luck part only had to do with the rolls on the piece at the end if you made it that far. Like I said, if you would rather pay for everything then more power to you. Many of us do not, for the reasons I already pointed out and probably more.
What in the hell are you even talking about? Pay for what? I spent about 35 or so hours of in game time to acquire my T5 rep and that's it. I made the marks and dilithium to pay for a big chunk of gear in the process. That is a significantly smaller investment than any other MMO I've ever played. It didn't cost me a damn dollar either.
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