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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,923
# 21
01-08-2013, 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Well, yes... it's because (on paper) snoozers have higher defensive (Eng and Sci) stations, plus more of them.

Even then, the only real advantages escorts have is a small innate boost and the ability to slot AP:O. Without AP DOffs a 'scort has a huge window of vulnerability, visually it may look fast but its score is not really much higher than that of any other ship once AP:O isn't running.



To be honest I'm not sure where you're going with this... at first I thought you were having issues with BO (what with the BoP sig and everything) but at the same time you seem to be arguing that snoozers/non-scorts are at a disadvantage. I mean, again, the only skill that's notorious for missing is BO. Unless your target's defensively buffed to the walls you shouldn't have much of a problem hitting him with anything else.
Hmm...okay well lets assume my post is my post and my sig is a pretty picture that comes after the post and shows what a great artist my friend is.

And the scorts advantage is huge. Because they CAN slot omega. Or two of them. Or a delta and an omega. Or some combination. And the actual speed is pretty good. Just move your engine power up a bit and scoot out of range..

But most cruisers and scis can't do those things. And they are starting from a deficit that they have no reasonable way out of, for no solid reasoning.

If defense was just no longer considered to be entirely based on speed, that would make a lot of this go away. Just because a sci/cruiser is slower shouldn't mean that they have lesser abilities to avoid damage. They are just DIFFERENT and something like tractor beam shouldn't allow an escort to pin a cruiser and beat the snot out of it. And that's what can be done currently.

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 22
01-08-2013, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Hmm...okay well lets assume my post is my post and my sig is a pretty picture that comes after the post and shows what a great artist my friend is.

And the scorts advantage is huge. Because they CAN slot omega. Or two of them. Or a delta and an omega. Or some combination. And the actual speed is pretty good. Just move your engine power up a bit and scoot out of range..

But most cruisers and scis can't do those things. And they are starting from a deficit that they have no reasonable way out of, for no solid reasoning.

If defense was just no longer considered to be entirely based on speed, that would make a lot of this go away. Just because a sci/cruiser is slower shouldn't mean that they have lesser abilities to avoid damage. They are just DIFFERENT and something like tractor beam shouldn't allow an escort to pin a cruiser and beat the snot out of it. And that's what can be done currently.
Delta doesn't apply a Defense buff, and any ship that passes a certain speed threshold maxes out their innate Defense as is.

I suppose you can make arguments about tractor beams being goofy and stuff but it's just odd that someone would post on the subject when if anything Defense (or "speed tanking") has taken major nerfs while CC has been hugely buffed. Evasives DOffs were about the only way other than expensive AP DOffs and the Aegis set to min-max Defense, and after those were "fixed" we got even more VM DOffs to complement the warp plasma holds/hard stuns, the time stuff, chrons, the new fancy Sci ships (both C-store and lockbox-wise) with innate TSS, etc.

If I set up an in-house game against my team and tell them not to hold back, our best Sci/snoozer players will render me 110% worthless and have me on complete lockdown as an escort. It's absolutely possible, if you want to cripple an escort at the knees now is really a golden age.

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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,501
# 23
01-08-2013, 11:40 AM
Don't worry when people get cross faction gear all Fed ships will have the opportunity to perma roll AoE defensive rating boost via MEF.

Also, isn't the defense rating differential just 10 between an Escort and a Cruiser in terms of base defense?

If anything it's the destroyers/multimode hybrid style ships that can both build a solid defense, dps potential, and or CC/debuffs. Also, in the past year a ton of Escorts got buffed hull and shield values. Various Doffs have reduced cooldowns allowing for more self defense possibilities.

I will say there's far too much potential for boosting CritH. The rep system nearly adds 5% between T2 skill and Romulan console. 6% from Weapons' 3x CritH, than add Borg Console and your pushing close to 15% w/o counting Captains skills or powers.

Then it's just a matter of debuffing a target's defense. VM, TB, 3 Part Omega set, EWP, Stuns are all usefull for this. Not to mention Sci drain focused builds like Tyken's + Doffs w/VM + Doffs and a TB.

As far as the Tac Tree defensive boosts, it's true APO and APD are helpfull. But, APO is only the 1st 5 seconds and I heard (haven't tested) APD only aids hull resists.

Imo there are solid defensive oriented buffs to other ships

EPTS3 - only 1 fed escort can use this iirc
RSP - most escorts only have a single lt eng slot and it's risky to use it on RSP, std is 2 EPTx powers
Aux2Damp - See above, stun immunity movement boost
Aux2Sif - See above, nice resists and short cooldown for a repair
ES - Very helpful to keeping teammates alive
TBR - pushes tacklers out of TB range, also can reduce cannon damage significantly
PH3 - Very high resist very strong TB resist
ST3, ET3 - Provide counters and high repairs depending on spec
HE3 - single highest repair value per activation, also long resists and clears some debuffs
TSS3 - similar to HE3, but for shields

Edit: Outside of game mechanics, I think of Escorts like Stealth fighters in that they have made adjustments to their ships to reduce the tracking capabilities of enemy ships on them. Scis and Cruisers in general just have too large of a signature to do that effectively.

Last edited by p2wsucks; 01-08-2013 at 11:43 AM.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,845
# 24
01-08-2013, 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Build a Vesta/Armitage the right way and you can break 120-130% defense.
Something I did not know. Wow!

I'm using my first KDF toon who was never traited for PvP and does not have the best equipment to push the minmax barrier and was rather proud of 94.8%.

Wow! No wonder I hate those vessels so much.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 25
01-08-2013, 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Build a Vesta/Armitage the right way and you can break 120-130% defense.
Curious, how did you manage this?

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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,501
# 26
01-08-2013, 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Curious, how did you manage this?
Idk, I can get around that w/a perma cloaked B'rel, but that includes the cloaking defensive boost. Perhaps he/she's including an Evasive Deut chain combo?
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,477
# 27
01-08-2013, 11:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Curious, how did you manage this?
Recall Mode Flight Deck Doffs. You can get an extra 30% base defense (10% x3 for purples) and lump an EM/ApD on top to hit that crazy cap. Base defense is about 100-110% in an Armitage depending on engine choice and power settings.

In theory it can work for any ship with a hangar bay, but pure carriers end up sacrificing way too much of their damage output to make it really viable I think.
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# 28
01-08-2013, 11:59 AM
Captain
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# 29
01-08-2013, 11:59 AM
<edit>

facepalm X 2
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,501
# 30
01-08-2013, 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
^ /facepalm
Imagine that w/MEF and -ACC from Shield proc lol.
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