Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 31
01-08-2013, 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
I was under the Belief that, all other extra factors aside like Traits, skills, BOff abilities and Equipment, the maximum Bonus Defense for Cruiser and Science vessels was 60% and the Escort class had a maximum of 70%.

Add in all the extra's like +10% from Elusive, +10% from Aegis and what ever skilling gives you, is when Bonus defense gets tricky.

At the base of it all though is just a 10% difference between Cruiser/Science and Escorts.

Possibly the issue is that Bonus Defense can go too high? I do know that some rather crazy numbers can be achieved.
It would seem like the solution would be to make the cap apply to the bonuses as well then.

I'm of kind of mixed feelings on the defense issue. I've been playing a pretty vanilla Patrol Escort lately, without access to most of the better gear yet. I'm playing a human captain without the specialized space traits either.

I can tell you that the basic escort, not min-maxed gets hit plenty. Speed helps, but I do take hits in that.

On the other hand, I see a lot of other escorts that just don't get hit, even when I'm matching their speed at half-throttle.

I'd think the best way to fix it would be to just make it so the cap effects the bonuses too. They'd still be an advantage, because they'd let you coast at minimum speed and still get significant defense, but it would end the silliness where you stream CRF into a target for 10 seconds and every single shot misses.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 32
01-08-2013, 01:08 PM
Basically the main thing that's keeping escort defense levels unnaturally high is AP DOffs. Getting AP:O down to its shared CD is extremely powerful.

When you're looking for something broken with the game, DOffs are usually a great place to start. It's really obvious at this point that they go through zero playtesting before being sent to live.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 33
01-08-2013, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post

I'd think the best way to fix it would be to just make it so the cap effects the bonuses too. They'd still be an advantage, because they'd let you coast at minimum speed and still get significant defense, but it would end the silliness where you stream CRF into a target for 10 seconds and every single shot misses.
I like the sound of this idea^.

Quote:
I can tell you that the basic escort, not min-maxed gets hit plenty. Speed helps, but I do take hits in that.
Though I get hit plenty for a unPvP-traited toon in my PegHu using the "tricks of the trade" to get a good defense under minmaxing.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 34
01-08-2013, 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Seriously it is far to strong. It plays out as an avoidance stat. That type of mechanic plays wonderfully with all the other mitigation stats. It is very unpredictable as to how much damge it will save a player from.

Before you think that that isn't true, consider that avoidance doesn't take into account the magnitude of the incoming attack. You avoid it you avoid it. Avoid a BO3 60k hit is equal to avoiding a turret's autofire as far as the stat is concerened. Resistances are a known factor we know exactly how much damage they will save us from.

The downside is the way defense plays into cruiser stats. Its way to low. There is no logical reason for this. None. Simply consider that defense decreases an attackers ability to hit a ship effectively and not "at all". Currently defense mechanic is an avoidance mechanic, it shows up as a miss after all. Some silly notion of 'speed tanking'. Oh okay, sure. The guys that can pilot a ship across the quadrant can't track another ship that's RIGHT THERE strictly becuase it's fast? Be serious.

There must be something else involved. Like electronic countermeasures, better shielding, stronger hulls, all sorts of "baked in" methods to assure that a ship isn't instantly locked on and vaporized.

But only for Escorts. The only way to gain defense is via tactical abilities. Please don't count evasion. Sure it's there. Yah you can doff it. Still Cruisers and Scis can't compete in the defense department with Escorts, yet Escorts can compete easily in resistances and heals.

Acc alone will never overcome Def. Def is way to high. There are methods to reduce a targets Def but the BEST ways to counter those methods reside squarely in the tactical domain and ALL the counters are available to Tac. And Def starts far to low for Cruisers and Sci considering they have no real ability to raise it.

At the least consider adding plus defense consoles for eng and sci. Construe them as electronic countermeasure or armor bracing consoles, but make them available. Have the ALSO reduce the chance to be critically hit. Is it reasonable that a dinky little ship can crit a cruiser out of existence in moments? Not so much.

Escorts need to have thier chance to be critically hit INCREASED. It seems pretty reasonable that you may miss an escort, but it seems equally reasonable that if you did, you'd hit something vital and not one of the five million holodecks, bars, lounges, crew quarters, cargo holds that a cruiser might feature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NINTlwpVAz8

More pics of stuff happening that likely shouldn't. It can happen to anyone, and it does. All the live long day.

Cheers happy flying, and to my cruiser and Sci ships brothers I hope they increase your def one way or the other!!
What I'm getting from this, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you want to change defense so it is not tied entirely to movement. You said your vid is full of things that likely shouldn't happen, and over and over it shows targets who have their movement halted getting alpha'd.

I'm not hearing you complain that you are missing, I'm hearing you complain that the mechanic is allowing attacks to be too effective because it allows you to completely remove defense with a tractor beam (contributing to Acc overflow I would assume).

So two changes could happen:

1. Speed becomes a component of a defense score, which also gets contributions from things like ECMs or a precog at the conn.

So escorts could have a larger percentage of their defense score come from movement, with sci and cruisers picking it up from other areas. This means the smaller zippy stuff would be hurt more by being stuck in the mud.

2. Defense becomes a chance X% to reduce damage by Y% rather than total avoidance.

So escorts would have a high X but a low Y, because they're always zipping around so darn fast that even your android boff can't keep up, so they shave 20% off of attacks pretty frequently because so many of the hits they take are glancing.

Cruisers have a low X but a high Y because they don't dodge very often but sometimes an empty cargo bay eats most of a BO and it doesn't take as much out of the actual structural integrity.

You could also potentially tie either X or Y to "crit resistance" if there is such a thing. I don't know enough about how the rolls work. We know we've got Acc overflow, how about defense overflow? If you hit the ceiling for X or Y you could get overflow into crit resistance? IDK. Just spitballing.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 217
# 35
01-08-2013, 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
You do know that resistance/defense are two different stats do you not? And you understand that a cruiser just plain can't have nearly as much defense as an escort can right? And that escorts are only marginally less effective in gaining resistance? I'm not sure what you don't get here.

No ships have as much defense as escorts. It's an avoidance stat and as such is very problematic for game balance as you can't dictate the damage that is avoided as implemented in STO. Period. And on the other end of it, you're crit to death and you die. Period. Seems fishy to me.
i meant defensive bo skills like jam scrambles viral stuff like that was in a hurry and failed to put that in. also if you get rid of defensive bonus you will run into the old faw cruiser tsi style fights again when faw was broken and ignored the defense bonus!

If you want to hit someone hard in a escort slow em up use crio torps and well times tractor beams viral gravwell target engines ect if you see someone buffing up and dont want to get owned jam evasive omega scramble warp plasma ect iv never found this to be a bother yea it sucks missing a bol3 i do it a lot but i also land a lot because i shut them down. there are so many ways to make this number go to 0

I would like to point to exibit a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwDiRf1rqNY how about you count the misses! Also watch the shows how often does the cpt say evasive maneuvers yea think he would say that if they got hit all the time while doing it...

This game is based off those shows its called star trek
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 36
01-08-2013, 02:37 PM
Don't you dare nerf defense! My subspace field modulator will cry!
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,638
# 37
01-09-2013, 04:38 AM
Not going to happen, sadly. Eng should be taken out of game, and most fed cruisers with them.

^^
more likely then a *gasp* nerf to tac/scorts.....
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 38
01-09-2013, 05:09 AM
If not for ridiculous yoyo healing, I'd like to have seen what could happen if Cruisers truly had massive hulls compared to other ships (150-200k). Then they might be slower but they, by virtue of being larger, would better absorb the massive damage that faster ships with lower hulls more easily avoid. But then the focus would have to be adjusted from healing to mitigation (yoyo healing is evil right now).

Inertia is somehow related to mass, what if high inertia meant larger ships with stronger hull and an innate resistance to energy weapon critical severity. Faster ships would be more prone to severity if hit but would still have an easier time dodging.

I die plenty but I'd be interested in testing a slight reduction in the defense cap for escorts, as Bobtheyak suggested.

While I'd love to fly my super sexy Galaxy-R more regularly, I above all else would like to avoid a return to Cruisers on line where escorts are more of a liability than a help and nothing else died.

Everything must die!
__________________________________________
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,308
# 39 A bit of a recap
01-09-2013, 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by omgrandalthor View Post
i meant defensive bo skills like jam scrambles viral stuff like that was in a hurry and failed to put that in. also if you get rid of defensive bonus you will run into the old faw cruiser tsi style fights again when faw was broken and ignored the defense bonus!

If you want to hit someone hard in a escort slow em up use crio torps and well times tractor beams viral gravwell target engines ect if you see someone buffing up and dont want to get owned jam evasive omega scramble warp plasma ect iv never found this to be a bother yea it sucks missing a bol3 i do it a lot but i also land a lot because i shut them down. there are so many ways to make this number go to 0

I would like to point to exibit a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwDiRf1rqNY how about you count the misses! Also watch the shows how often does the cpt say evasive maneuvers yea think he would say that if they got hit all the time while doing it...

This game is based off those shows its called star trek
Okay listen. You NEED to read what I posted before you comment. You NEED to take your time when you respond. I already MENTIONED evasive in the OP. Yes I've heard of star trek. I think we all have. Just take a minute or two is all I'm asking.

I have NO idea where this "someones missing BO3 stuff" started, but go figure.
The game in its current state HUGELY favors my style of play. It just does.

As you were so kind as to leave a helpful video I thought I would do the same. This should reflect my inner feelings when I read your posts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcELyKkOAak

Sure there's PLENTY of ways to reduce defense to ZERO. And TACTICAL ONLY has the single BEST way out of that. As you have mentioned. Omega.

If anyone thought, or still thinks, I was actually serious about removing defense I'm sorry.

I thought you all would see right through that.

Avoidance stats are notoriously hard to balance in games. This is because it allows you to potentially avoid anything that comes at you. When the highest defense class in the game also has the highest defense buff/cleanse in the game I hope you can see the gap this opens up.

Yes, ships can lose defense very easily, Escorts easily get it back, and at the same time have access to only marginally weaker hull resists. Any ship can cap shield resists.

Better shields mods and higher resistance hulls and health points on scis and engis doesn't compensate well for the sad relationship that defense and crits seem to have. They will be hit and they will be hit hard.

I'm not saying that counters etc aren't out there. But please keep in mind the dual nature of most Boff abilities in this game. Remember I mentioned that? I hope I did. When a cruiser uses PH to escape a Tractor they'll gain a boost to resistance. Something that we all should know by now doesn't stack to well on a cruiser at this point. Okay maybe if they aren't running any armor they will show a nice gain. Or TSS on a Sci. Woo hoo I got my heal and now my shields are.....Just like before! Woot! Cause you KNOW its likely your shield res is already capped.

Okay this bit previously. We know how resistances diminish, and reach a cap. An escort will get a far better outcome from using those abilites as they likely started lower to begin with. So for being weaker in that stat, they end up with a greater boost, and end up almost at parity with the other ships. Oh really? Yes really.

What does an escort get. They get omega. Defense boost beyond what any acc in the game can overcome, and a boost to speed, manuevers, and damage. Hey not bad I'll take that. Lets look at delta, the weaker cousin. Still enough to boost resistance in a manner that other ships likely wont carry (they could, but they have tough choices with TT) plus it will lower the attackers resistance unless they use TT. And hey, I'd much rather an opponent waste his TT on the offense, then I know when it's time to alpha. And Omega.

Speed based defense is favorable only to escorts. It's a very passive free stat for escorts. Tying defense to crits is grievous to the game in general. And it negates the shield mods, hull boosts, and hull resistances that other classes of ships were given to offset the defense deficit.

There needs to be other ways in the game to manage the defense stat outside of speed. There could be a minimum defense that lack of speed could never reduce you past. There could be another stat based on "some stuff we will make up" like an abstraction of hull strength and bracing and or electronic countermeasures as passives. This stat would boost defense and lower your chance to be crit.

Cause crit NEEDS another dance partner.

Then maybe, with 3 tools spread equally amongst the classes, incoming damage can be managed to the point where resistances can be relaxed, spike damage can be mitigated, heals can be reduced, and stuff will still die.

And wouldn't that be a tad bit better than "Poof my 60k cruiser just exploded." Honestly wouldn't it?

Cheers happy flying!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.

Last edited by thissler; 01-09-2013 at 06:16 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 40
01-09-2013, 07:06 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post

If anyone thought, or still thinks, I was actually serious about removing defense I'm sorry.

I thought you all would see right through that.
With all the whine posts about "My Engineer can't wade into space combat like Geordi did in the series, flinging damage like its pez..." , "Cruisers can't dish out damage like my Escort does, size should mean more firepower....", " Sophilogimo's continuos "bad ideas" and all the other flotsam and jetsam of crying we see in the forums on how things are - It gets hard to see who is joking and who is seriuos.

If the Defense issue for escorts (that whole extra 10%) is truelly an issue and ApO ( which can be used on several (5) fed Non-tactical ships as well) gives too much extra defense on top of a Hold-breaker buff then possibly the hold-breaker needs to be removed so those whom lament the speed tanking of a Escort can use TB and other holds to stop them and kill them.

Of course if they remove the Hold-breaker from ApO then they need to put something in its place to compensate, imo.

Personally though I fail to understand how experienced Cruisers or Science Vessels with access to;

EPTS3 with its 30 second long 30% resist to shields
A2sif with its +19 to +37 ALL damage resistance for 10 seconds that can be adjusted by Aux.
TSS with its +7% to 15% damage reduction to shields for 15 seconds that can be adjusted by Aux.
PH with is +37 and up ALL damage resistance for 15 seconds that can be adjusted by Aux.
HE with its +20 ALL damage resistance for 15 seconds that can be adjusted by Aux.

are not bouncing more Alpha strikes and surviving them if only wounded?
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP

Last edited by bitemepwe; 01-09-2013 at 07:21 AM.
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