Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 306
# 51
01-09-2013, 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Okay listen. You NEED to read what I posted before you comment. You NEED to take your time when you respond. I already MENTIONED evasive in the OP. Yes I've heard of star trek. I think we all have. Just take a minute or two is all I'm asking.

I have NO idea where this "someones missing BO3 stuff" started, but go figure.
The game in its current state HUGELY favors my style of play. It just does.

As you were so kind as to leave a helpful video I thought I would do the same. This should reflect my inner feelings when I read your posts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcELyKkOAak

Sure there's PLENTY of ways to reduce defense to ZERO. And TACTICAL ONLY has the single BEST way out of that. As you have mentioned. Omega.

If anyone thought, or still thinks, I was actually serious about removing defense I'm sorry.

I thought you all would see right through that.

Avoidance stats are notoriously hard to balance in games. This is because it allows you to potentially avoid anything that comes at you. When the highest defense class in the game also has the highest defense buff/cleanse in the game I hope you can see the gap this opens up.

Yes, ships can lose defense very easily, Escorts easily get it back, and at the same time have access to only marginally weaker hull resists. Any ship can cap shield resists.

Better shields mods and higher resistance hulls and health points on scis and engis doesn't compensate well for the sad relationship that defense and crits seem to have. They will be hit and they will be hit hard.

I'm not saying that counters etc aren't out there. But please keep in mind the dual nature of most Boff abilities in this game. Remember I mentioned that? I hope I did. When a cruiser uses PH to escape a Tractor they'll gain a boost to resistance. Something that we all should know by now doesn't stack to well on a cruiser at this point. Okay maybe if they aren't running any armor they will show a nice gain. Or TSS on a Sci. Woo hoo I got my heal and now my shields are.....Just like before! Woot! Cause you KNOW its likely your shield res is already capped.

Okay this bit previously. We know how resistances diminish, and reach a cap. An escort will get a far better outcome from using those abilites as they likely started lower to begin with. So for being weaker in that stat, they end up with a greater boost, and end up almost at parity with the other ships. Oh really? Yes really.

What does an escort get. They get omega. Defense boost beyond what any acc in the game can overcome, and a boost to speed, manuevers, and damage. Hey not bad I'll take that. Lets look at delta, the weaker cousin. Still enough to boost resistance in a manner that other ships likely wont carry (they could, but they have tough choices with TT) plus it will lower the attackers resistance unless they use TT. And hey, I'd much rather an opponent waste his TT on the offense, then I know when it's time to alpha. And Omega.

Speed based defense is favorable only to escorts. It's a very passive free stat for escorts. Tying defense to crits is grievous to the game in general. And it negates the shield mods, hull boosts, and hull resistances that other classes of ships were given to offset the defense deficit.

There needs to be other ways in the game to manage the defense stat outside of speed. There could be a minimum defense that lack of speed could never reduce you past. There could be another stat based on "some stuff we will make up" like an abstraction of hull strength and bracing and or electronic countermeasures as passives. This stat would boost defense and lower your chance to be crit.

Cause crit NEEDS another dance partner.

Then maybe, with 3 tools spread equally amongst the classes, incoming damage can be managed to the point where resistances can be relaxed, spike damage can be mitigated, heals can be reduced, and stuff will still die.

And wouldn't that be a tad bit better than "Poof my 60k cruiser just exploded." Honestly wouldn't it?

Cheers happy flying!
They could remove the acc bonus to crith/d that would allow the cruisers to not get owned so fast when siting still with 0 defense and might make people use something other than accx3 weps to

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek

Last edited by bluegeek; 01-09-2013 at 02:04 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,412
# 52
01-09-2013, 01:46 PM
Uncoupling Defense from speed would be kinda weird I think. You'd have people sitting still and getting missed (not that that's impossible now, I suppose), visually it would look super bizarre.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,412
# 53
01-09-2013, 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
I have NO idea where this "someones missing BO3 stuff" started, but go figure.
The game in its current state HUGELY favors my style of play. It just does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Before you think that that isn't true, consider that avoidance doesn't take into account the magnitude of the incoming attack. You avoid it you avoid it. Avoid a BO3 60k hit is equal to avoiding a turret's autofire as far as the stat is concerened. Resistances are a known factor we know exactly how much damage they will save us from.
I'm also curious, what is your style of play that's hugely favoured by the game?

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 54
01-09-2013, 08:05 PM
I must apoligise. I missunderstood about the vesta getting 120% bonus defense. I did not know it was when it was using the console.

So I say just put a cap on bonus defense, but otherwise I have no issues with it.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 55
01-09-2013, 08:13 PM
I don't think much can be said about Thisler and his misinformed understanding about taking "Defense" out of this game.

Clearly this individual needs a few sessions of Bootcamp to better understand the fundamental necessity of defense in this game. Bootcamp can be signed up here Please do not hesitate to sign up Thisler.

Bluegeek, I suggest you sign up too, here You'll have a lot of fun, I promise.

I think the (Randal) aiding of someone who needs help (Thisler) on a forum can lead to cumbersome moderation (Bluegeek) and at times unnecessary frustration. For this reason and as a solution, I (PaxOttomana) would suggest both (Thisler & Bluegeek) of you to come attend some of these sessions. Good luck!

Last edited by paxottoman; 01-09-2013 at 08:25 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 137
# 56
01-10-2013, 05:54 AM
I have always felt that Cryptic missed the mark on creating a different feel for the three types of ships. Ideally, escorts would use evasion for defense, cruisers would use hull, and science ships would use shields. I think it may have even started out where this was the case, but has since transformed into something else as player stats increased.

Complaints over escort damage have arisen as result of them becoming strong enough in hull and shields that they no longer need to stay at full speed during battle. We've all seen the best players in escorts come to a complete stop and unload without fear of death, and it's this lack of need for evasion (defense) that has caused their uptime (and thus damage dealt) to skyrocket to a point where players feel it needs to be toned down. If staying at full speed was required for an escort to survive, they would still deal the highest amounts of damage, however the pressure would not be quite as absolute as it is right now.

Cruisers, likewise, seem to have too much evasion for their bulk. Having flown one for a while, I'm always surprised at how much longer I survive while moving at a high speed. When flying something the size of a small moon, missing me shouldn't really be an option unless your tactical officer is drunk on the job. On the same note, if cruisers didn't have this evasion (which they shouldn't), then their hulls should be increased to promote hull tanking, rather than shield replenishment.

Science ships might be fairly close to working as intended. However, I do acknowledge that they could stand to have a shield modifier that deals with direct hull damage (as it has become very popular), since they have a low hull. If shields are their bread and butter, it should be made more difficult simply to pop their hull while they have a shield remaining. It saddens me to see most of the science ship players swapping over to Chel Grett's or tankier hybrids simply because their trademark science ships are no longer able to survive.

Much like other games, as gear constantly improves, the developers find that the nature of a class (ship class, in this case) tends to evolve in different ways that take it away from the intention of it's original design. Normally, a new leveling tier or expansion comes along, and allows them to retune each back to what it was supposed to be. Because STO has been at this level cap for so long, and new seasons have brought better and newer improved items, the lines between the ship classes have begun to blur. If Cryptic is going to fix this, it will require a large amount of effort and a great deal of dissension from players who have come to prefer their roles in the ships they have now. Complaints would arise where players have spent money to acquire something they believed to have great value, only to feel cheated when it suddenly wasn't as valuable as they'd thought.

So, to wrap up in the context of this post, I'm afraid I don't agree with the OP. Evasion is something the game needs, should be expanded upon (to allow escorts to avoid tractor beams, get out of gravity wells faster, avoid holds with more success), but should be nearly the entire defense an escort has to stay alive. Right now, the best escorts aren't staying alive because of defense, they're alive because their shields, hull, and healing abilities are too strong.
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Last edited by voxlagind; 01-10-2013 at 05:57 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 57
01-10-2013, 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxottoman View Post
I don't think much can be said about Thisler and his misinformed understanding about taking "Defense" out of this game.

Clearly this individual needs a few sessions of Bootcamp to better understand the fundamental necessity of defense in this game. Bootcamp can be signed up here Please do not hesitate to sign up Thisler.

Bluegeek, I suggest you sign up too, here You'll have a lot of fun, I promise.

I think the (Randal) aiding of someone who needs help (Thisler) on a forum can lead to cumbersome moderation (Bluegeek) and at times unnecessary frustration. For this reason and as a solution, I (PaxOttomana) would suggest both (Thisler & Bluegeek) of you to come attend some of these sessions. Good luck!
Am I the only one who looked at the thread title, then at the poster, and said "Thissler what do you really mean" as I opened the thread?

Pax, seriously dude, read it again. You're a good guy but damn if you can't sound like you're up on your high horse, calling out one of the best alpha strikers in the game like he's a noob who's calling for a nerf cause he can't play. (And Pax, I apologize in advance if you were being sarcastic about Thissler needing boot camp and I missed it).

Despite his thread title, he's actually calling for more defense from other sources; sources not so easily and completely mitigated by a hold. Sources available to the ships which, at present, are the least able to break that hold.

I'm afraid the original post was too tongue in cheek for some, which isn't surprising given the number of "Let's revamp the game completely to suit my personal taste" threads we're used to reading.

It's funny because this is actually the opposite of one of those threads. If you passed out other sources of defense Thissler's style would suffer for it. IDK about you guys but I haven't seen many other "Nerf ME" threads. Next he'll be asking for sweaters for Orion girls.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,675
# 58
01-10-2013, 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i am of course aware of the acc overflow, but that still isn't a high defense score directly reducing your crit chance. thats what i was trying to say there was no connection of. /teasing

This is hard. And it is hard because Def is an avoidance stat. And it is dependant on Acc. If you do not hit you can not crit. This is partially why it is difficult to balance as it is difficult to manage the amount of damage that will be avoided. A high def ship in this game will be crit less often than a low def ship. The range of Acc in the game is very small compared to the potentail range for Def. What is it -25 to 130?


the harder ships with lower evasion have higher end heals and damage resistance options. the hard can harden, and the soft and speedy can get more speedy, and more easily counter things that make them less speedy. thats the design principle i see at least.

Yes it was, but it was weak and due to the nature of avoidance, turned out to be NOT a strictly linear solution. You can't expect 25% res and 25% avoidance to return the same results. And the didn't of course so we turned up res. Okay that's not working lets turn up hulls. Nevermind. We now have the knobs on shield res and hull res turned all the way up and STILL a 60k hull ship can vanish. Not a good place to be when you've maxed out all your resources to manage incoming damage because design ruled out defense.


thats not necessarily wrong, but things are so yoyo it almost doesn't mater what base hit point numbers you have at all, more of what station powers you have access too. but the defense score is unaffected by the yoyo that makes base numbers trivial, it still decisively maters regardless. heals can be used on you that you have no access too as well. really, teamwork and cross healing is whats fundamentally unbalanced, and the cause of all the problems. doesn't a disorganized pug feel more natural?

No. Things are so yo yo simply because avoidance started an arms race between resistance and damage. Well one class converts damage into spike damage. Guess who wins? ZOMG now we need more healz! ZOMG now we need more hull! ZOM...see where this is going? It goes to where we are.


thats why an escort chassis is by far the best. all the built in advantages, lacking only the higher end stations for its own heals, sometimes, to say nothing of the heals it can freely receive. thus my attraction to the vet ship and KDF cruisers, most of the offense, with most of the defense, for myself and others.

Wow, excellent point! Maybe I should have had you make my opening statement.
Not picking on your post to much I hope. It was a nice post. And really at the end you seemed to say....essentially that you agreed. Non escorts only have marginally better resists and heals available and none of the mobility and defense abilities. Escorts get it all.

I just sorted it out a bit to redirect it back to defense. There's where all the nonsense derives from, you yourself pointed out the scheme they used to balance it.

This isn't uncommon in MMO's when avoidance stats are used.

All I'm pointing out is that we need to give players and devs tools to properly manage the stat to avoid the extremes for all the classes.

Once we avoid the extremes for all the classes we won't see commonplace spike damage.

Once we no longer see commonplace spike damage, we won't need capped resistances.

Once we no longer see capped resistances we won't need huge healing skills.

See how things start to get better?


And...finally. Here. Pax this is for you you seemed to have wanted some sort of assiatance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwio...FBCB5E088B924C


For quite a bit now, with the help of some friends in game who likely don't deserve the stain on thier reputation that having me on speed dial gives, I've done a thing or two to help out new and old players alike.

Oh wait, you wanted me to ATTEND Boot Camp, not help out.

And shimmerless, only horizon has a closer place in my heart than you! Do you ever even watch those vids? And are you an artist, i need one. send me a message.

My style of play is to watch buffs and then pounce at the moment I know that I can tractor someone into critical hit heaven and then vaporize them. It's sooper effective and it likely shouldn't be.

And vox, you almost got it, but not quite. You need to see that evasion allows escorts to avoid so much damage at all times that what is to them the secondary line of defense has MUCH less to mitigate. Yah we know the secondary line is strong. That's what all these posts are about. Its to strong BECAUSE the devs are trying to balance around an avoidance stat using only mitigation. It doesn't work.

Cheers and happy flying!

Awesome Blog
Awesome Videos
Website that's always under construction
And...FACEBOOK MEH!

Last edited by thissler; 01-10-2013 at 09:38 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,675
# 59
01-10-2013, 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Uncoupling Defense from speed would be kinda weird I think. You'd have people sitting still and getting missed (not that that's impossible now, I suppose), visually it would look super bizarre.
C'mon! Energy bursts just SPLASHING off the hull of your cruiser like rain off a newly waxed Porsche?

Give me MOAR!

But essentially yes. Or not making speed the ONLY way to get defense. As RRicky was saying consoles or ECM that would give a passive boost helping to keep ships out of the extremes of defense loss.

And Roach I hear yah! But it just isn't the high levels of defense. It's that escorts have several benifits that the other ships don't while they still have access to all the resists and heals of those classes.

It's interesting to note, that besides gaining a greater benefit from Boff powers that boost resists that reside in the eng and sci camp, tacs have delta. I mean c'mon. But I mentioned that already.

Awesome Blog
Awesome Videos
Website that's always under construction
And...FACEBOOK MEH!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 60
01-10-2013, 09:33 AM
Defense isn't the problem Thiss.

I've played this game through pvp for years, I got to see the game before it got loaded up with Set Item Trash, Doffemon, MK XI+ weapons and consoles, and the horrible skill tree.

F2P and Set Items are what trashed this games balance.

It ain't gettin better either, so might as well just do what I do and only play for the lulz.
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