Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,534
# 61
01-10-2013, 08:41 AM
Mav. Its 830 in the morning. If you're getting drunk without me you know how MAD I'm gonna be?

And I only ever play for lulz.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,624
# 62
01-10-2013, 08:51 AM
Actualy movinf faster makes sence from the stand point that, if you are using some kind of ecm, it makes it mre effective.

We also have a counter measures skill, maybe it should grant some kind of passive DEF bonus. Its science specific and verry high level so the chances of a scort using it are slim, but may be more worth while to sci and cruisers.

The stealth skill would also be a place to add a small def bonus, since stealth isn't always about being invisible.

Having armor consoles that add to CM and stealth would make sence too, like if they were covered in sensor absorbing/scattering materials.


Might make MES more viable.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 63
01-10-2013, 08:52 AM
Why else would you play?
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 64
01-10-2013, 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
Am I the only one who looked at the thread title, then at the poster, and said "Thissler what do you really mean" as I opened the thread?

Pax, seriously dude, read it again. You're a good guy but damn if you can't sound like you're up on your high horse, calling out one of the best alpha strikers in the game like he's a noob who's calling for a nerf cause he can't play. (And Pax, I apologize in advance if you were being sarcastic about Thissler needing boot camp and I missed it).

Despite his thread title, he's actually calling for more defense from other sources; sources not so easily and completely mitigated by a hold. Sources available to the ships which, at present, are the least able to break that hold.

I'm afraid the original post was too tongue in cheek for some, which isn't surprising given the number of "Let's revamp the game completely to suit my personal taste" threads we're used to reading.

It's funny because this is actually the opposite of one of those threads. If you passed out other sources of defense Thissler's style would suffer for it. IDK about you guys but I haven't seen many other "Nerf ME" threads. Next he'll be asking for sweaters for Orion girls.
I re-read his post, and to be frank I still stand by the idea this person does not understand the synergy of the three ship classes in this game, the roles, and the synergy they provide in PvP.

Sure it's great and all to roll by yourself, and pop a few people while at it. But the fundamentals of the game's ability to attribute Defense/Accuracy comes at the cost of being a team player. From what I have seen, read, understood, this is a solo player's sorrows being spilled onto a forum for a general overhaul of PvP. Proposing a drastic change to game play.

Let nobody be mistaken, this game has indeed shifted. The development of this game has shifted in favor of team play. The Bootcamp lessons are based on this, the Dev team supported PvP tournament, Bootcamp, and the nerfing and buffing of certain abilities in the past that have all concluded this reality.

For instance someone's post about current affairs in PvP was:
"I've seen escorts stop, unload, not move without the fear of being destroyed"

Well it's probably because the synergy of team support allowing him to stay put for that duration, perhaps an extends, transfer shields has buffed his standstill defenses. They are temporary mind you. Debuff them? Synergy. And so on...

Now I don't think this game should be nerfed when it comes to escort damage, or defense or anything like that. Specifics are more important at this point to be looked into, like tricobalt mine explosions, the further nerfing of solo game play. It still has a lot of Kirk Style and we all know that.

I'd like to also add Redricky, that Rand Al Thor is one of the first PvPers in this game. If not the first. Much less one of the first players to start playing this game. There's a reason why his name has spaces between each part of it. As I had mentioned in my previous post, unfortunately it can get frustrating for people to learn/teach stuff on here. That's why we have bootcamp, it has nothing to do with being on a high horse. After all, it is the modest attitude of committing your own knowledge and time to teach others these fundamental principles of the game.

Just for the record, bootcamp isn't about a bunch of vets teaching some new people basic principles etc. We're really learning a lot of stuff from them too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post

And...finally. Here. Pax this is for you you seemed to have wanted some sort of assiatance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwio...FBCB5E088B924C
And Thisler, I'll favorite this one. I'll keep you in mind as a strong candidate for the upcoming Roleplay Tournament. Take care bud.

Thanks for your time.

Last edited by paxottoman; 01-10-2013 at 09:13 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,977
# 65
01-10-2013, 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Not picking on your post to much I hope. It was a nice post. And really at the end you seemed to say....essentially that you agreed. Non escorts only have marginally better resists and heals available and none of the mobility and defense abilities. Escorts get it all.

I just sorted it out a bit to redirect it back to defense. There's where all the nonsense derives from, you yourself pointed out the scheme they used to balance it.

This isn't uncommon in MMO's when avoidance stats are used.

All I'm pointing out is that we need to give players and devs tools to properly manage the stat to avoid the extremes for all the classes.

Once we avoid the extremes for all the classes we won't see commonplace spike damage.

Once we no longer see commonplace spike damage, we won't need capped resistances.

Once we no longer see capped resistances we won't need huge healing skills.

See how things start to get better?
i could go for all that. but currently, of all the defensive options, defense is the easiest and most reliable to turn off completely. even when the ships with the most defense have a 90% immunity to defense neutralization. shields, if theres a lot of phasers around, can be turned off nearly as hard, but only at random.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Mav. Its 830 in the morning. If you're getting drunk without me you know how MAD I'm gonna be?

And I only ever play for lulz.
being in the same time zone, you would think we would see each other more often
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,587
# 66
01-10-2013, 09:42 AM
I'm not as knowledgeable as most of you folks are on this game, but my thought on the matter is this:

Why not make defense bonuses give diminishing returns?

Not really nerf defense at all, but at least make people have to work more for it. As it stands now, it's all additive, so you can gain it easily.

Let people still run tons of Def bonus stuff, but make them have to really use them all together to get that super-duper defense.

Maybe not the right way, but it'd at least bring it a bit more into line. Sci ships and cruisers don't normally have as much defense, so if they used something (like Subspace Field Modulator), it'd still give a good bonus, but a high-flying escort is a bit different, they wouldn't gain as much if they already have like perma-Omega running and such. Even if the escort was flown by a player who didn't have all the super-fancy DOFFs and whatnots, that could still help them because they could fly a bit more on-par and still be a help to their team.

That's just my thoughts on it.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 67
01-10-2013, 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Mav. Its 830 in the morning. If you're getting drunk without me you know how MAD I'm gonna be?

And I only ever play for lulz.
Quite sober at the moment actually.

It's not Sunday
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 68
01-10-2013, 09:58 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post

And Roach I hear yah! But it just isn't the high levels of defense. It's that escorts have several benifits that the other ships don't while they still have access to all the resists and heals of those classes.
just as long as you know my posts are not personal attacks.

But I still must ask... Outside of Attack Pattern Alpha*, what Escort benefits can only be used by Escorts?

* keep in mind several non-escort ships have a LTC Tac BOff slot and can use ApO1, so its not a completely Escort related benefit and ApO's defense bonus lasts 5 seconds so is very situational and requires timing. Just spamming ApO constantly doesn't help your defense constantly.

IE: Fleet SV-r, AHC-r, FL AHC-r, AC-r, Fl AC, and those are just the fed non-escorts vessels that can use ApO.

I understand I harp on this point alot, but I'm just not buying that ApO's brief defense buff is the easy defense that many claim it to be for escorts and that such is why the are percieved as defensively OP.
I truelly believe those Escorts that defend themselves so effortlessly is becuase of good timing on ability use and experience of the player in question. I've seen too many Escorts pop in Ker'rat to believe otherwise.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 01-10-2013 at 10:01 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,534
# 69
01-10-2013, 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxottoman View Post
I re-read his post, and to be frank I still stand by the idea this person does not understand the synergy of the three ship classes in this game, the roles, and the synergy they provide in PvP.

Sure it's great and all to roll by yourself, and pop a few people while at it. But the fundamentals of the game's ability to attribute Defense/Accuracy comes at the cost of being a team player. From what I have seen, read, understood, this is a solo player's sorrows being spilled onto a forum for a general overhaul of PvP. Proposing a drastic change to game play.

Let nobody be mistaken, this game has indeed shifted. The development of this game has shifted in favor of team play. The Bootcamp lessons are based on this, the Dev team supported PvP tournament, Bootcamp, and the nerfing and buffing of certain abilities in the past that have all concluded this reality.

For instance someone's post about current affairs in PvP was:
"I've seen escorts stop, unload, not move without the fear of being destroyed"

Well it's probably because the synergy of team support allowing him to stay put for that duration, perhaps an extends, transfer shields has buffed his standstill defenses. They are temporary mind you. Debuff them? Synergy. And so on...

Now I don't think this game should be nerfed when it comes to escort damage, or defense or anything like that. Specifics are more important at this point to be looked into, like tricobalt mine explosions, the further nerfing of solo game play. It still has a lot of Kirk Style and we all know that.

I'd like to also add Redricky, that Rand Al Thor is one of the first PvPers in this game. If not the first. Much less one of the first players to start playing this game. There's a reason why his name has spaces between each part of it. As I had mentioned in my previous post, unfortunately it can get frustrating for people to learn/teach stuff on here. That's why we have bootcamp, it has nothing to do with being on a high horse. After all, it is the modest attitude of committing your own knowledge and time to teach others these fundamental principles of the game.

Just for the record, bootcamp isn't about a bunch of vets teaching some new people basic principles etc. We're really learning a lot of stuff from them too!



And Thisler, I'll favorite this one. I'll keep you in mind as a strong candidate for the upcoming Roleplay Tournament. Take care bud.

Thanks for your time.
I guess you just don't understand avoidance. Or even the disparity that heaping one stat on a single class brings. What don't you get exactly or what is hard for you to grasp?

Do you not understand how avoidance works?

Do you not understand how tying avoidance into crit is harmful?

Do you not understand that when all three classes have resistance stats cranked to full and one class also holds all the defense cards, that Synergy doesnt' exist?

I fear that you honestly don't understand the fundamentals of the mechanics at work in this game.

And yah...been here since beta as well. Whoop de do.

And if you think I'm pouring my sorrows on the forums your kind of a sad whatever it is to make that sort of assumption. Why the hell would I be sad? When did you become the scorekeeper of how many opponents I kill or don't kill? Is that how you measure your success? So please stop. Your opinion really isn't what games are designed around. Well, sometimes it is hard to actually know. Maybe it IS your opinion. If it is please do a better job.

But in the meantime stick to facts. And you've been categorically unable to refute mine.

Hell, you already said you couldn't understand it.

Omg...".let nobody be mistaken." You're a card. Really you are. Team play. You're loads of laughs. If you don't understand some basic design flaws that are making it very hard to balance gameplay, and that TWO factors of that scheme are already pushed to thier limit, and how those factors have interacted with each other to bring us the spike damage/healing and instant deaths we know today...I would say....

you don't grasp what synergy means.

So buck up, try harder to understand basic game mechanics and you may see that the way they interact in STO is causing no end of grief!!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 277
# 70
01-10-2013, 10:15 AM
I have seen sci ships tank 10 people in karrat AKA Lacus and have my self tanked 10 ships in karrat on my engy in a odyssey out of all ships my escort not so much I have to kill them before they kill me... yea... The first ones I target are always escorts why?! they are squishy at most 3 shield heals and one hull heal then the defense bonus only works when they are in evasive I have accx3 weps mostly because I don't have a hold.

One of the solo mistakes I see a lot of cruisers doing is they use team setups and pve setups to solo, Sometimes I am one of those people. But trust me when I say you can make a cruiser or a sci ship that will render any escort useless and kill it because you take away its so called op defense.

If you did not have the spike damage cruisers and sci ships would never die good built ones are near imposable to take out as it is especially in teams. On the other side if they take this out spike damage will go up a bit but escorts will be so squishy no one in their right mind will take one in a pvp team match because everyone will be on a faw beam ship like tsi did when it ignored the defense bonus! Anyone remember fighting that? Even now who gets targeted in a team battle yea escorts because they are the easiest to kill...
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